Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
flyingOx
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Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

If only at times this imagined imagery during one’s meditation of putting out the burning coals of the roots of the hindrances with imagined water actually works, but at other times it does not, does this cancel out this particular meditative practice as being a an illegitimate technique? Or does it merely indicate that one’s belief in its effectiveness is not genuinely applied adequately enough when it fails to deliver the desired results?
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

All joking aside, now...
And we should believe that why?


Imagined imagery is not vipassana. It is imagined imagery.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

tiltbillings wrote:
All joking aside, now...
And we should believe that why?

Imagined imagery is not vipassana. It is imagined imagery.
Because the question that I asked was serious. If you have a personal problem with me, though, why don't you address me personally in a private message. If you have a serious answer or input to the subject matter of this thread, then by all means, please share what you have to say.

It is quite clear when I have made threads that were meant to be humorous, unless of course the reader is just so completely humorless that they are not able to recognize such things.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

flyingOx wrote:All joking aside, now...

Because the question that I asked was serious. If you have a personal problem with me, though, why don't you address me personally in a private message.
The problem is while people have tried to deal with you seriously you clowned around publicly in response to their well-meaning attempts at trying to deal with you seriously, and your signature raises the question - publicly. Once bitten twice shy.
It is quite clear when I have made threads that were meant to be humorous, unless of course the reader is just so completely humorless that they are not able to recognize such things.
That would be just about - if not - all the responders to your previous two threads of clowning around msgs, and you treated them shabbily with your clowning around and this comment of yours does not help. If you are now, in fact, serious, then let us move on, but do take some responsibility for your previous - at best - questionable behavior.
If you have a serious answer or input to the subject matter of this thread, then by all means, please share what you have to say.
You were given a serious answer to your question: Imagined imagery is not vipassana. It is imagined imagery.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

Wasnt very nice if you lied in the other threads and tricked others for your own amusement. Plus it can lead to a situation of "the boy who cried wolf"


metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

What would you like me to say,then, tiltbillings? Let's see:

No, I am not enlightened.
Yes, I have clowned around.
Yes, I thought it was obvious.
Do I like YOU, tilt? No, I don't.
Do I think that a lot of Buddhists go around acting like stuck up, know it all snobs? Yes, I do.
Am I considering not ever wanting to talk to another Buddhist again, because of it. MAYBE! TILT...It HAS come across my mind more than once.
I left the Christian faith because I thought that they were too arrogant, but by and large, Buddhism has them beat at it, if you ask me. I haven't run into so many stuck up jerks in my life, to be honest with you.

NOW, do I apprecieate and find a lot of peace and love in Buddha's writings, yes I do, but I'm not so sure that Buddhism is the right place for me, even still. The ball is on your side of the court, buddy.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

No, I am not enlightened.
So you lied to everyone, not very kind of you
Yes, I have clowned around.
Humour is good but not at other peoples expense, which is what you have attempted to do here

Do I like YOU, tilt? No, I don't.
Metta
Do I think that a lot of Buddhists go around acting like stuck up, know it all snobs? Yes, I do.
A lot of what was said was to try and help you because they thought you were ill, however you lied and played games with them
Am I considering not ever wanting to talk to another Buddhist again, because of it. MAYBE! TILT...It HAS come across my mind more than once.
Honesty is liked in buddhist circles, lying as you have done wouldnt be welcomed. In Buddhism lying, even for "jokes" isnt seen as wholesome




NOW, do I apprecieate and find a lot of peace and love in Buddha's writings, yes I do, but I'm not so sure that Buddhism is the right place for me, even still.
Then why dont you put it into practice for your own benefit and for others instead of lying and trying to make fools of those who offer help and compassion?


metta friend
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

flyingOx wrote:What would you like me to say,then, tiltbillings? Let's see:

No, I am not enlightened.
Yes, I have clowned around.
Yes, I thought it was obvious.
Do I like YOU, tilt? No, I don't.
Do I think that a lot of Buddhists go around acting like stuck up, know it all snobs? Yes, I do.
Am I considering not ever wanting to talk to another Buddhist again, because of it. MAYBE! TILT...It HAS come across my mind more than once.
I left the Christian faith because I thought that they were too arrogant, but by and large, Buddhism has them beat at it, if you ask me. I haven't run into so many stuck up jerks in my life, to be honest with you.

NOW, do I apprecieate and find a lot of peace and love in Buddha's writings, yes I do, but I'm not so sure that Buddhism is the right place for me, even still. The ball is on your side of the court, buddy.
You are still blaming others for your bad behavior. If you are going to really get something out of Buddhism, that probably is not the way to do it. That others may act badly is not the point; the point is taking responsibility for your behavior and the consequences of that behavior. That is between you and you. Just don't expect people who have been burned by your behavior not to be wary, especially when rather than an apology one gets from you a self justification rant.

Now, if you are serious about the question, let us move on.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

I don't like you Tilt, I don't want to move on with any conversation with you. PERIOD. You are a jerk. I will not talk to someone so hateful.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

Telling someone that they are psychologically ill because of the way that they believe spiritually is not being helpful.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

flyingOx wrote:Telling someone that they are psychologically ill because of the way that they believe spiritually is not being helpful.

Neither is lying to pretend to be something your not and continue on with it even when others show concern for you



If you didnt find it helpful when people thought you were ill because you claimed to be enlightened why didnt you just come clean and admit it was a joke instead of carrying on with it?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ben
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ben »

flyingOx wrote:Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?
No. As Tilt has inferred, imagination is not seeing things as they really are (vipassana).
Ben
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flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

clw_uk wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Telling someone that they are psychologically ill because of the way that they believe spiritually is not being helpful.

Neither is lying to pretend to be something your not and continue on with it even when others show concern for you



If you didnt find it helpful when people thought you were ill because you claimed to be enlightened why didnt you just come clean and admit it was a joke instead of carrying on with it?
When I first became successful at producing my own jhana and higher subtle states, I thought that I WAS enlightened. I don't know if I was or not, now. Too many people have made me question it. As far as everything else, I was just joking, and I thought that it was obvious.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

Ben wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?
No. As Tilt has inferred, imagination is not seeing things as they really are (vipassana).
Ben
I see. But if one actually DOES see the root of a hindrance, is it not permissable to also imagine them being put out as with water?
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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