Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

When I first became successful at producing my own jhana and higher subtle states, I thought that I WAS enlightened. I don't know if I was or not, now. Too many people have made me question it. As far as everything else, I was just joking, and I thought that it was obvious.

Not being critical here but offering some friendly advice ok :) . If you doubt you are enlightened then you are not, reguardless of it you doubt it yourself or if others "make you" doubt

When one is enlightened one is sure, beyond all doubt


as for the rest, perhaps you thought everyone could tell you were joking but I (and i assume others) could not, hence when you later say it was a joke it just seems like you were taking advantage of peoples kindness and being deceitful


Anyway if anyone is a good buddhist there will be no hatred either way, by all means carry on posting here if you wish. My advice though would to just be honest from now on and leave practical jokes aside :)

metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

flyingOx wrote:
Ben wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?
No. As Tilt has inferred, imagination is not seeing things as they really are (vipassana).
Ben
I see. But if one actually DOES see the root of a hindrance, is it not permissable to also imagine them being put out as with water?

The problem with imagining it is that your using conditioned thought and are just thinking about it not experiencing and seeing it via mindfulness and concentration to get insight


for a basic example, i can think about anatta and imagine various things to conceptualize it but I still dont actually know or see it

metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is why in the four foundations of mindfulness, in realtion to the body for this example, we dont sit there and think about the body being anicca, anatta and dukkha but actually experience it and see it via strong mindfulness and concentration



The essence is mindfulness (observing, watching) and concentration (focusing etc)



metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

After I had reached the higher jhanas and after the point of perceiving but not perceiving, I WAS sure that I was enlightened, AT THAT TIME. The questioning came later.

You and other say things like, "I'm not trying to be judgemental, not to be critical, not to be this or that," but these are just figures of speech. You ARE being critical, and this is also to me dishonesty. I suppose it depends on who is being dishonest or how long that particular Buddhist has been practicing when they get to actually get away with such things.

As far as hatefulness, whether you say that it is merely me misinterpreting it or not, I definitely have sensed hate being sent my way from several people here on Dhamma Wheel. You can call that an imagination if you want to, but I don't really care.

All of you are making a very good case for me to not become a Buddhist, though.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

After I had reached the higher jhanas and after the point of perceiving but not perceiving, I WAS sure that I was enlightened, AT THAT TIME. The questioning came later.

You arent the first to think such things after said exp. and you wont be the last
You and other say things like, "I'm not trying to be judgemental, not to be critical, not to be this or that," but these are just figures of speech. You ARE being critical, and this is also to me dishonesty. I suppose it depends on who is being dishonest or how long that particular Buddhist has been practicing when they get to actually get away with such things.
Of course its a criticism, the phrase "im not being judgemental" etc means that one isnt criticising you in a negative way but for positive reasons, so its positive criticism. Everyone needs this at some point otherwise we are surrounded by Yes Men and know one would actually learn anything, good criticism makes someone grow
As far as hatefulness, whether you say that it is merely me misinterpreting it or not, I definitely have sensed hate being sent my way from several people here on Dhamma Wheel. You can call that an imagination if you want to, but I don't really care.
Just because something looks like its a personal attack etc doesnt mean it is, Enlightened beings in the suttas were sometimes rude to new students. They had no hate or anger in them. Its the intention behind the act that makes it hateful

The apprerance of something posted doesnt always correlate with the intention behind it

The phrase "cruel to be kind" is apt here

You can believe me or not, its up to you, but i dont hate you and none of my previous posts were written with hate or anger as an intention. I cant speak for others but i assume the same
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

clw_uk wrote: You can believe me or not, its up to you, but i dont hate you and none of my previous posts were written with hate or anger as an intention. I cant speak for others but i assume the same
I have not sensed hate coming from you, but I have from others. I do not mind being corrected as long as it is being done with love behind it. I DO know when it is hate being sent my way, though. I may have not been sure of many things in my life, but I do have a good sense of discernment.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

I have not sensed hate coming from you, but I have from others. I do not mind being corrected as long as it is being done with love behind it. I DO know when it is hate being sent my way, though. I may have not been sure of many things in my life, but I do have a good sense of discernment.

It may seem that way but you can never know a persons actual intention, even more so when its on the internet



Besides even if they are doing as you said, being angry with them is like holding onto a hot coal and trying to throw it at the person you are angry at, in the end the only person who truly gets burned is yourself


kindness, compassion, patience, equanimity, joy and understanding are important :)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

There are no difficult people in reality, the difficulty arises in the mind
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

clw_uk wrote:
I have not sensed hate coming from you, but I have from others. I do not mind being corrected as long as it is being done with love behind it. I DO know when it is hate being sent my way, though. I may have not been sure of many things in my life, but I do have a good sense of discernment.

It may seem that way but you can never know a persons actual intention, even more so when its on the internet



Besides even if they are doing as you said, being angry with them is like holding onto a hot coal and trying to throw it at the person you are angry at, in the end the only person who truly gets burned is yourself


kindness, compassion, patience, equanimity, joy and understanding are important :)
Yes, I know.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

clw_uk wrote:There are no difficult people in reality, the difficulty arises in the mind
You can say that about everything, though. If everything is really nothing. I'm having difficulty understanding why anything really matters, and this is why I joke so much. It just seems like this whole big universe is just one big joke.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

flyingOx wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There are no difficult people in reality, the difficulty arises in the mind
You can say that about everything, though. If everything is really nothing. I'm having difficulty understanding why anything really matters, and this is why I joke so much. It just seems like this whole big universe is just one big joke.


No one said everything is nothing, thats nihilism


Anatta just means "not-self" it doesnt mean nothingness. Ending dukkha is what matters, for "our selves" and others


Will try to explain more tomorow, have to go to bed now its nearly midnight here :shock:


all the best
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

Alright.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

What you are describing is all interesting stuff, but like anything that arises in meditation, it is stuff - all of it - to let go.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

clw_uk wrote:
flyingOx wrote: I see. But if one actually DOES see the root of a hindrance, is it not permissable to also imagine them being put out as with water?

The problem with imagining it is that your using conditioned thought and are just thinking about it not experiencing and seeing it via mindfulness and concentration to get insight


for a basic example, i can think about anatta and imagine various things to conceptualize it but I still dont actually know or see it

metta
So what makes the root of the hindrance actually be extinguished? I thought nibbana means to extinguish? Is just being mindful and concentrated on the root of the hindrance enough to make it vanish? How long does one have to keep concentrating on it? What if one has to stay concentrated on it a whole lifetime because it is so strong?
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

flyingOx wrote:te]

So what makes the root of the hindrance actually be extinguished?
Seeing, experiencing, it conditioned, interdependent nature.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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