Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:You can believe me or not, its up to you, but i dont hate you and none of my previous posts were written with hate or anger as an intention. I cant speak for others but i assume the same


I have not sensed hate coming from you, but I have from others. I do not mind being corrected as long as it is being done with love behind it. I DO know when it is hate being sent my way, though. I may have not been sure of many things in my life, but I do have a good sense of discernment.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:39 pm

I have not sensed hate coming from you, but I have from others. I do not mind being corrected as long as it is being done with love behind it. I DO know when it is hate being sent my way, though. I may have not been sure of many things in my life, but I do have a good sense of discernment.



It may seem that way but you can never know a persons actual intention, even more so when its on the internet



Besides even if they are doing as you said, being angry with them is like holding onto a hot coal and trying to throw it at the person you are angry at, in the end the only person who truly gets burned is yourself


kindness, compassion, patience, equanimity, joy and understanding are important :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:40 pm

There are no difficult people in reality, the difficulty arises in the mind
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:41 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I have not sensed hate coming from you, but I have from others. I do not mind being corrected as long as it is being done with love behind it. I DO know when it is hate being sent my way, though. I may have not been sure of many things in my life, but I do have a good sense of discernment.



It may seem that way but you can never know a persons actual intention, even more so when its on the internet



Besides even if they are doing as you said, being angry with them is like holding onto a hot coal and trying to throw it at the person you are angry at, in the end the only person who truly gets burned is yourself


kindness, compassion, patience, equanimity, joy and understanding are important :)


Yes, I know.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:43 pm

clw_uk wrote:There are no difficult people in reality, the difficulty arises in the mind


You can say that about everything, though. If everything is really nothing. I'm having difficulty understanding why anything really matters, and this is why I joke so much. It just seems like this whole big universe is just one big joke.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:54 pm

flyingOx wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There are no difficult people in reality, the difficulty arises in the mind


You can say that about everything, though. If everything is really nothing. I'm having difficulty understanding why anything really matters, and this is why I joke so much. It just seems like this whole big universe is just one big joke.




No one said everything is nothing, thats nihilism


Anatta just means "not-self" it doesnt mean nothingness. Ending dukkha is what matters, for "our selves" and others


Will try to explain more tomorow, have to go to bed now its nearly midnight here :shock:


all the best
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:00 pm

Alright.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:41 pm

What you are describing is all interesting stuff, but like anything that arises in meditation, it is stuff - all of it - to let go.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:17 am

clw_uk wrote:
flyingOx wrote:I see. But if one actually DOES see the root of a hindrance, is it not permissable to also imagine them being put out as with water?



The problem with imagining it is that your using conditioned thought and are just thinking about it not experiencing and seeing it via mindfulness and concentration to get insight


for a basic example, i can think about anatta and imagine various things to conceptualize it but I still dont actually know or see it

metta


So what makes the root of the hindrance actually be extinguished? I thought nibbana means to extinguish? Is just being mindful and concentrated on the root of the hindrance enough to make it vanish? How long does one have to keep concentrating on it? What if one has to stay concentrated on it a whole lifetime because it is so strong?
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:20 am

flyingOx wrote:te]

So what makes the root of the hindrance actually be extinguished?


Seeing, experiencing, it conditioned, interdependent nature.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:26 am

tiltbillings wrote:What you are describing is all interesting stuff, but like anything that arises in meditation, it is stuff - all of it - to let go.


Look! I'm trying to get an understanding of this. Why do you seem to have the need to keep trying to push the buttons of my unresolved hindrances, anyway? If I let just anyone and everyone do whatever the heck they wanted to try and purify me, I would never get any rest. I will deal with the pertinent hindrances at the correct time. It is not up to you. Besides, if letting go was all that was necessary, I wouldn't have been confused about whether there was really enlightenment or not, which I'm beginning to think is just a big hoax. I'm beginning to think that everyone is really just the same, some with the higher states of jhana along with the higher non-material states. I'm not so sure there is such a thing as the ultimate awakening anymore, especially if what you realize when you get there is just nothingness, which is what people have been telling me ever since my experiences prior to coming to Dhamma Wheel. I probably should have left well enough alone and stuck to what I had. Now, I am experiencing old hindrances that I thought had already been extinguished. It sucks!
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
flyingOx wrote:te]

So what makes the root of the hindrance actually be extinguished?


Seeing, experiencing, it conditioned, interdependent nature.


I do, but with some hindrances that apparently isn't enough, because some seem to leave, but they never really do. They just get silenced for a time.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:45 am

Then you really have not penetrated to the core of the interdependent nature of what you are seeing. You cannot force it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:Then you really have not penetrated to the core of the interdependent nature of what you are seeing. You cannot force it.


I have tried not forcing it, but it takes for ever. How long does one sit there and tunnel into it? I'm beginning to think that all of this stuff is just a giant head game.

Look what you have given me. You have given me extremely confusing, foreign words with complex meanings that cannot be fully described in English, which means that even if I did try to learn Pali, I would never truly understand it the way that it was meant to be understood. I have experienced a sense of personal peace like never before, but I am constantly being told that it isn’t really worth anything. It’s just jhana. Then I achieve the base of infinite empty space, the base of infinite consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither perception nor non-perception. I am told that that isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to experience the awakening. Which is what? The extinguishing of the roots of the hindrances. I think that that is what I have done. I am told that that still isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to extinguish the roots of any and all forms of conceit. I think that I do, but then they come back. Not only that, but the other kinds of hindrances come back too. What do you expect me to think?

I think that everyone is experiencing the same thing. It’s just that some are lucky enough to fall into the right position, know the right people, or have many people look up to them and respect them. That’s the only difference that I can see. The ones who get looked up to are the ones who go around playing head games with everyone else trying to convince them that they really haven’t experienced anything important yet so that they will feel inferior, and if they don’t buy into it by submitting to the ones being manipulative and judgmental then they are reminded of how much humility that they need to cultivate.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:25 am

flyingOx wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Then you really have not penetrated to the core of the interdependent nature of what you are seeing. You cannot force it.


I have tried not forcing it, but it takes for ever. How long does one sit there and tunnel into it? I'm beginning to think that all of this stuff is just a giant head game.


How long? It depends, but it is not a matter of tunneling into anything. It is a matter of paying attention, without choice, into whatever rises and falls in the mind/body process. These things are deeply entrenched and subtle, though when the Buddha said greed, hatred, and delusion, he meant GREED, HATRED, AND DELUSION. It is the rare person who is able to get to the root of these things in short order.

Look what you have given me. You have given me extremely confusing, foreign words with complex meanings that cannot be fully described in English, which means that even if I did try to learn Pali, I would never truly understand it the way that it was meant to be understood.


I have used no Pali words here other than vipassana, which simply means insight.

I have experienced a sense of personal peace like never before, but I am constantly being told that it isn’t really worth anything.


Just do not get attached to it. If it leaves, changes, what will you have? If you do feel pain, discomfort, unhappiness when it leaves, that pain and discomfort is just more stuff to watch as it arises and falls, as it comes and goes.


It’s just jhana. Then I achieve the base of infinite empty space, the base of infinite consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither perception nor non-perception. I am told that that isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to experience the awakening.


Same process the Buddha went trough.

Which is what? The extinguishing of the roots of the hindrances. I think that that is what I have done. I am told that that still isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to extinguish the roots of any and all forms of conceit. I think that I do, but then they come back. Not only that, but the other kinds of hindrances come back too. What do you expect me to think?


If they come back, you have not extinguished them. It takes time and effort.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:35 am

I can understand why no one claims to attain anything. Everyone will definitley do their best to embarass you and discourage you by revealing how terribly difficult it is. It takes time and persistence, that's for sure, but it still won't be enough, will it?
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:41 am

flyingOx wrote:I can understand why no one claims to attain anything. Everyone will definitley do their best to embarass you and discourage you by revealing how terribly difficult it is. It takes time and persistence, that's for sure, but it still won't be enough, will it?



No one is trying to embarrass you or anyone else concerning the difficulty on the path. It is just fact of the matter. It can be discouraging, but as the practice progress one find things a little easier, little lighter, and even for that the path is worth it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby Dan74 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:57 am

I know Tibetan meditation involves visualization (mostly of deities symbolizing various aspects of enlightened mind. And these can help turn the bad habits/hindrances around and bring them back to their wholesome root (tantra). But not being a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner I am out of my depth here.

Theravada meditation as I understand it involves insight into the dependent originating nature of whatever hindrance is there and the particular clinging/attachment/delusion/ignorance that fuels it. Once that is understood, ignorance is no more, attachment relinquished and there goes the hindrance.

Again not being a Theravada practitioner I am out of my depth, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable can correct the above.

Keep on practicing, dude! (go easy on us oldies - we mean well (yes, even tilt), but we just don't always get the need to come on a forum and raise hell about being enlightened and all that jazz).

Good luck!

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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:23 am

Well, if you can't explain it better, then apparently what you have just isn't enough. I'm not so sure I even believe in anything anymore. I'm really not sure that I believe in enlightenment. I know that we all are capable of experiencing some very peaceful states, but what is that? That isn't enough. I'm beginning to think that all religions, including Buddhism are all a bunch of hoaxes to get you on an endless pursuit of nothingness. How do you know when you get there? Well, apparently you aren't there if you have to ask, but then again, there is no proof that anyone else got there either.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:13 am

You try it; if it does not work out for, you find no benefit after giving what you think is a fair trial, then let it go.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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