the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:25 am

Greetings Spiny,

Sn (as opposed to SN) usually refers to the Sutta Nipata.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:30 pm

Also,

Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:The last two chapters of the Sn are often cited as being very early suttas.


Mike, by first 2 chapters, do you mean the first 2 books? That would be the Book with verses, SN1 - SN11, and the Book of causation, SN12 - SN21? SN12 is Nidanavagga, the one relating to DO.


:shrug:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby robertk » Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:58 pm

just thought i would popin and say thank you to lyndon and spiny for putting things clearly recently on this thread. :namaste:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:35 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
nowheat wrote:…but I’m not an academic … and my notes are on tiny bits of kipple scattered all over the house … and my sister is coming for a visit … but I’ll get back to you!


Oh ye of little faith. Fascinated by the amount of prejudging you do. Would you rather I be dishonest about who I am? Or become thin on the ground here without explanation? Sheesh. Instead I am perfectly willing to expose myself to your ridicule by being just exactly who I am without pretensions.

Perhaps you didn't understand that I came here to be put in the position of having to do the work to defend what I'm saying. Why would I bail when we're just getting to the good part?

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:18 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:The last two chapters of the Sn are often cited as being very early suttas.


Mike, by first 2 chapters, do you mean the first 2 books? That would be the Book with verses, SN1 - SN11, and the Book of causation, SN12 - SN21? SN12 is Nidanavagga, the one relating to DO.

Not the Samyutta Nikaya, the last two chapters of the Sutta Nipata:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#vagga-4
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#vagga-5
See the discussions on the last chapter in the Study Group. Here is the last one: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8302

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:45 pm

by tiltbillings » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:40 am

clw_uk/Craig wrote: So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas


Tilt - In the suttas, tied directly to the Four Noble Truths and conditioned co-production, as has been clearly shown above using a number of sutta texts.


Of course, I said that there was :) all I said was that it happens as mind moments and that I dont know if it carries on after death of the aggregates. Also that an argument can be made that Buddhadhamma should be practised even if there is no rebirth and that someone can practice Dhamma without believing or disbelieving in rebirth

Craig wrote:
From what I have read Buddhadasa taught the same (would it shock you to know he does say that "I am" happens after death if there is still ignorance)

Tilt - That was already clearly established above that Buddhadasa did only not deny post mortem rebirth, but accepted it.


Apparently, I read it in the book "Me and mine"

"All creatures possess their own Kamma. Their present lives proceed in response to their old Kamma. .... In the wheel of Kamma, this minute overlaps with the next, this hour with the next and this life with the next. All events are intermeshed until it is difficult to know with certainty which action is the cause of which result."

Chapter One - Buddhism in Brief


In the most fundemental sense, "emptiness" simply means empty of attachment to me-mine. The mind will simply be a mind in its natural state, free of attachment and ignorance because it has seen the emptiness of all things. When me and mine has been extinguished without leaving a trace, we say that it has been extinguished without leaving a trace, we say that it has been extinguished by the nibbana element ...

The normal cessation of the khandha - the mind and body aggregates - has nothing to do with the cessation of the attachement to me-and-mine. The "self" exists as long as there is thought. Even when we think that the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth - Samsara.

If the nibbana element becomes involved, however, feelings of "self" will cease absolutely. As for the body, whether it is still alive or is dead, it is simply seen as something subject to time, arising and passing away.


Chapter 5, Cessation of me and mind, page 106


However, of course, he still teaches D.O. as occurring in moments and still disagrees with the Visuddhimagga's Three lifetimes model in this book

Craig inaccurately wrote:
The main point of contention is that people with a rebirth belief see the psychological teaching of D.O. as undermining rebirth and going against the Suttas. I just don't see how it does though.

Tilt - It would seem, rather, that the psychologicalists often obstinately deny any actual utility to the idea of literal rebirth, setting up a stawman argument in regards to literal rebirth, as we can see with Craig’s numerous missives above.


Well I do see utility in the view, I have said this in a previous post

I dont see how it is an essential view to have though. That is one can say "I dont know if its true or not" and still practice Dhamma


With awareness practice, however, one is not being asked to believe in anything or to operate from any theory - or even to regard ones own preferences for the afterlife - but to recognize the way it actually is at this moment.


..."So this helps me to recognize that I don't have to know what happens after physical death, because I cant know, and it doesn't really matter. I am not asking for some kind of affirmation to make me feel better"


Ajahn Sumedho

Of course this isnt true of everyone, for some rebirth view is important

Craig wrote:
My main issue is when people take the view that one must have a view of rebirth to be a Buddhist, or that the four noble truths and D.O. describe a purely 3 lifetime model.

Tilti - Those who hold that the Buddha did, in fact, teach literal rebirth have been a great deal more flexible on this point than have the psychologicalists in their attempted dismissal of the literalist position.


Maybe, I have seen inflexibility on both sides

Craig wrote:
So this would extend to using Dhamma as a philosophical tool to use for arguments (credo) instead of using it for insight (Buddhadhamma), which leads to freedom from dukkha ... The raft properly used

Tilt - The psychologicalist point of view can, just as easily as the literalist position, be abused by becoming a “credo,” as Craig has shown.


Of course I agree. Holding to concepts without using them can happen regardless of the interpretation.
Last edited by clw_uk on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:52 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:From what I have read Buddhadasa taught the same (would it shock you to know he does say that "I am" happens after death if there is still ignorance ;))


So Buddhadasa accepts post-mortem rebirth? I didn't know that.



From my understanding of his books and Dhamma talks he does say that craving will lead to "I am" in another life. However I have only read him discussing this twice in all his works.


"All creatures possess their own Kamma. Their present lives proceed in response to their old Kamma. .... In the wheel of Kamma, this minute overlaps with the next, this hour with the next and this life with the next. All events are intermeshed until it is difficult to know with certainty which action is the cause of which result."

Chapter One - Buddhism in Brief


In the most fundemental sense, "emptiness" simply means empty of attachment to me-mine. The mind will simply be a mind in its natural state, free of attachment and ignorance because it has seen the emptiness of all things. When me and mine has been extinguished without leaving a trace, we say that it has been extinguished without leaving a trace, we say that it has been extinguished by the nibbana element ...

The normal cessation of the khandha - the mind and body aggregates - has nothing to do with the cessation of the attachement to me-and-mine. The "self" exists as long as there is thought. Even when we think that the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth - Samsara.

If the nibbana element becomes involved, however, feelings of "self" will cease absolutely. As for the body, whether it is still alive or is dead, it is simply seen as something subject to time, arising and passing away.

Chapter 5, Cessation of me and mine, page 106




He does however dismiss any speculation of future lives as a waste of time and argues for D.O. occurring in the present moment, so clinging causing birth of "I am" that can spill over into another life


To call something a foundation of the Buddhist Teachings is only correct if firstly, it is a principle which aims at the extinction of Dukkha [2] and, secondly, it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others. These are the important constituents of a foundation.

The Buddha refused to have any dealing with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there. is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance [3] ? These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism. Also, the one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indis­criminately believe the answer he's given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe "the other's words. Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until it's something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha.


http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/books ... o_tree.htm

Its similar, even identical, to the teachings of Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Amaro
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:26 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:From what I have read Buddhadasa taught the same (would it shock you to know he does say that "I am" happens after death if there is still ignorance ;))


So Buddhadasa accepts post-mortem rebirth? I didn't know that.

See these quotes from Vens Buddhadasa and Vens Sumedho that I posted a long time ago:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&hilit=mikenz66&start=1660#p97581

In fact, you commented on them at the time: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&hilit=mikenz66&start=1660#p97633 :reading:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:09 pm

mikenz66 wrote:See these quotes from Vens Buddhadasa and Vens Sumedho that I posted a long time ago:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&hilit=mikenz66&start=1660#p97581

In fact, you commented on them at the time: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&hilit=mikenz66&start=1660#p97633


After 227 pages in 4 years, this whole thread is probably destined to just keep going round in circles (Have I said that before I wonder? )




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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:
by tiltbillings » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:40 am

clw_uk/Craig wrote: So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas


Tilt - In the suttas, tied directly to the Four Noble Truths and conditioned co-production, as has been clearly shown above using a number of sutta texts.


Of course, I said that there was all I said was that it happens as mind moments and that I dont know if it carries on after death of the aggregates. Also that an argument can be made that Buddhadhamma should be practised even if there is no rebirth and that someone can practice Dhamma without believing or disbelieving in rebirth.
This is why I cannot take anything you say seriously.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=4020#p256031
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=4020#p256034

As these two msg make clear what was being talked about was not the metaphorical "rebirth, but, rather, the literal rebirth that is plainly apparent in the suttas, and you clearly acknowledged that literal rebirth that is plainly apparent in the suttas, but now, it seems, you are trying to rewrite what you said.

Craig: "I dont know if it carries on after death of the aggregates." You may not know, but the suttas clearly teach it, as you did acknowledge (though you are now trying desperately to back track from your fit of honesty). While you may not believe in literal rebirth, there is no reason to try to rewrite the suttas, nor is there any reason to try to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth, as taught in the suttas, as folks that just do not really, truly understand the Dhamma.

Sadly, we see, however, in your missives above you continue with your pathetic straw-man characterization of what it means to believe in rebirth literally.


Tilt wrote:It would seem, rather, that the psychologicalists often obstinately deny any actual utility to the idea of literal rebirth, setting up a stawman argument in regards to literal rebirth, as we can see with Craig’s numerous missives above.



Well I do see utility in the view, I have said this in a previous post

I dont see how it is an essential view to have though. That is one can say "I dont know if its true or not" and still practice Dhamma
You do not know if Nibbana is true, either. If you see the utility in believing in literal rebirth, then I am curious as to why you continue to characterize such believe via your strawman argumentation. No one is saying you MUST believe in rebirth to practice the Dhamma, but I think it would be far more honest of you not to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth in such a prejudicial way as you continue to do.

Craig wrote:Holding to concepts without using them can happen regardless of the interpretation.
Yes, a belief in literal rebirth can be an important motivating aspect of practice, otherwise the Buddha would not have taught it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:20 am

I can only respond in brief atm

Craig: "I dont know if it carries on after death of the aggregates."

Tilt - You may not know, but the suttas clearly teach it, as you did acknowledge (though you are now trying desperately to back track from your fit of honesty).


I don't see how I'm backing out of anything :/

As I said, in some of the suttas we have the Buddha teaching that there is birth of "I am" after death. All I said was I don't know if that aspect is true or not, and so dont believe or disbelieve either way but would practice the same regardless. Also that Dhamma practice should be practiced in either situation (rebirth or not).


While you may not believe in literal rebirth, there is no reason to try to rewrite the suttas, nor is there any reason to try to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth, as taught in the suttas, as folks that just do not really, truly understand the Dhamma.



I'm not saying that :/

Just because someone has a view of rebirth doesn't mean they understand Dhamma anyless than I do. I am saying that it isn't essential, and that people can practice Dhamma with or without it.



You do not know if Nibbana is true, either.


No I don't, but belief in Nibbana is essential



If you see the utility in believing in literal rebirth, then I am curious as to why you continue to characterize such believe via your strawman argumentation. No one is saying you MUST believe in rebirth to practice the Dhamma, but I think it would be far more honest of you not to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth in such a prejudicial way as you continue to do.


I'm sorry if I come across that way, that's not my intent. As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:28 am

Yes, a belief in literal rebirth can be an important motivating aspect of practice, otherwise the Buddha would not have taught it.



I agree
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:46 am

Greetings Craig,

clw_uk wrote:As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).

For what it's worth, I don't see that you're doing these things that people are often accusing you of... and I think you are enduring their projection very well.

For what it's worth, I don't find the fact that you do not (personally) find rebirth view to be essential, to be in the slightest bit confronting.

It would be nice if the issue could be discussed openly without people trying to second-guess and ascribe agendas to other people, introduce irrelevant distortions etc. but it seems that such openness will not be abided yet... maybe one day.

Enjoy your day.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:47 am

clw_uk wrote:
If you see the utility in believing in literal rebirth, then I am curious as to why you continue to characterize such believe via your strawman argumentation. No one is saying you MUST believe in rebirth to practice the Dhamma, but I think it would be far more honest of you not to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth in such a prejudicial way as you continue to do.


I'm sorry if I come across that way, that's not my intent. As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).
Well, that is nice, and maybe you will let go of your strawman approach in talking about literal rebirth.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:00 am

Well, that is nice, and maybe you will let go of your strawman approach in talking about literal rebirth.


Out of interest, how is it a straw man? I don't see how
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,

clw_uk wrote:As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).

For what it's worth, I don't see that you're doing these things that people are often accusing you of... and I think you are enduring their projection very well.

For what it's worth, I don't find the fact that you do not (personally) find rebirth view to be essential, to be in the slightest bit confronting.

It would be nice if the issue could be discussed openly without people trying to second-guess and ascribe agendas to other people, introduce irrelevant distortions etc. but it seems that such openness will not be abided yet... maybe one day.

Enjoy your day.

Metta,
Retro. :)



Thank you :)


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:08 am

clw_uk wrote:
Well, that is nice, and maybe you will let go of your strawman approach in talking about literal rebirth.


Out of interest, how is it a straw man? I don't see how
That is really that the problem, it would seem. You don't see it. Maybe it would be helpful to always keep in mind that those believe in literal rebirth as taught by the Buddha find it beneficial in terms of their practice, that they are not caught up in unnecessary speculations about kamma and about the future just because they accept the Buddha's teachings about rebirth.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,

clw_uk wrote:As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).


For what it's worth, I don't see that you're doing these things that people are often accusing you of... and I think you are enduring their projection very well.

For what it's worth, I don't find the fact that you do not (personally) find rebirth view to be essential, to be in the slightest bit confronting.

It would be nice if the issue could be discussed openly without people trying to second-guess and ascribe agendas to other people, introduce irrelevant distortions etc. but it seems that such openness will not be abided yet... maybe one day.

Enjoy your day.

Metta,
Retro. :)



Well said, Retro !

In general, I don't honestly see that there's any point in having this thread called "The Great Rebirth Debate," if only one viewpoint is considered to be acceptable.

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:48 am

Aloka wrote:
I don't honestly see that there's any point in having this thread called "The Great Rebirth Debate," if only one viewpoint is allowed.

:anjali:
There is no problem with multiple points of view. It is how the differing points of view are regard and portrayed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:37 am

So far I have read that literal rebirth view can be good for motivating one to follow the buddha's teachings...for some people. I would like to read about some ways that literal rebirth view enters into someones practice in some way other than as a motivating principle.....do people try to be mindful of it for some reason other than motivation?.....do they contemplate it for some reason other than motivation?....how do people use literal rebirth view to enhance the other teachings....or to mesh in with the other teachings?
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