the great rebirth debate

[daverupa]

Which goes to the point that, even in the Buddha's case, rebirth served no essential function in his motivation to practice; all the way up to fourth jhana it was impossible for such a thing to have made a difference since it was, as yet, undiscovered (sickness, aging, and death were his expressed motivations as a bodhisatta - not re-birth). Additionally, since the first two of the three knowledges are not present for all arahants, rebirth-view is doubly shown up as being altogether inessential.

Rereading his awakening texts might be a good idea for you.

Making a point free of gnomic insinuation might also be a good idea.

[tiltbillings]

Which goes to the point that, even in the Buddha's case, rebirth served no essential function in his motivation to practice; all the way up to fourth jhana it was impossible for such a thing to have made a difference since it was, as yet, undiscovered (sickness, aging, and death were his expressed motivations as a bodhisatta - not re-birth). Additionally, since the first two of the three knowledges are not present for all arahants, rebirth-view is doubly shown up as being altogether inessential.

Rereading his awakening texts might be a good idea for you.

Making a point free of gnomic insinuation might also be a good idea.

{{{Snap}}} However there is no insinuation here. Simply stated in MN 36 and SN 12.65 (CDB i 601), among others, an awareness of birth and rebirth very much part play an important role in the insight that is described in these awakening of the Buddha texts, which is what I am talking about.

[daverupa]

Simply stated in MN 36 and SN 12.65 (CDB i 601), among others, an awareness of birth and rebirth very much part play an important role in the insight that is described in these awakening of the Buddha texts, which is what I am talking about.

Very well.

I only said two things: it had nothing to do with his preceding motivation, and it was not a requisite knowledge to be expected of every arahant. Your point is unrelated to these points; we're talking past each other.

[tiltbillings]

Simply stated in MN 36 and SN 12.65 (CDB i 601), among others, an awareness of birth and rebirth very much part play an important role in the insight that is described in these awakening of the Buddha texts, which is what I am talking about.

Very well.

I only said two things: it had nothing to do with his preceding motivation, and it was not a requisite knowledge to be expected of every arahant. Your point is unrelated to these points; we're talking past each other.

Sure. My only point in discussing anything in this thread is the point that the Buddha taught literal rebirth, and I can add to that that literal rebirth is not some peripheral thing.
As for not being a motivating factor for the Bodhisatta. MN 26: "Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

SN xii 65: Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, before my Awakening, when I was just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the realization came to me: 'How this world has fallen on difficulty! It is born, it ages, it dies, it falls away & rearises, but it does not discern the escape from this stress, from this aging & death. O when will it discern the escape from this stress, from this aging & death?' trans Ven Thanissaro. Being already born and still being subject to birth, and seeing that it, the world, falls away and rearises, looks to be a motivation for the Buddha-to-be.

[santa100]

daverupa wrote:..it(rebirth) had nothing to do with his preceding motivation..

Actually, according to MN 26, ending the rounds of rebirth had everything to do with his motivation. The Buddha gave the reason to why He had to leave His two teachers after he has reached the same attainment level like them:

..Thus Āḷāra Kālāma, my teacher, placed me, his pupil, on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occurred to me: ‘This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna, but only to reappearance in the base of nothingness. Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, disappointed with it, I left. ~~ http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... earch.html ~~

and Ven. Bodhi's note:

That is, it leads to rebirth in the plane of existence called the base of nothingness, the objective counterpart of the seventh meditative attainment. Here the lifespan is supposed to be 60,000 aeons, but when that has elapsed one must pass away and return to a lower world. Thus one who attains this is still not free from birth and death but is caught in the trap of Māra (MA). Horner misses the point that rebirth is the issue by translating “only as far as reaching the plane of no-thing” (MLS 1:209).

[Ceisiwr]

Actually, according to MN 26, ending the rounds of rebirth had everything to do with his motivation. The Buddha gave the reason to why He had to leave His two teachers after he has reached the same attainment level like them:

Well to be more precise, his motivation was dukkha and freedom from it ... Whatever form that may take


His first motivation was to be free from "birth, ageing, sickness and death"


Which he found through non-identification with that which is "born, ages, decays and dies"


Deathless

[Ceisiwr]

Tilt - As for not being a motivating factor for the Bodhisatta. MN 26:


"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

What's that got to do with rebirth post mortem?

[Ceisiwr]

And, I suppose, rebirth, taken literally, is a "tainted" right view. Interestingly, in reading the accounts of his awakening, "tainted right view" served as a basis for the Buddha's awakening.

How do you understand this sutta?

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

[tiltbillings]

And, I suppose, rebirth, taken literally, is a "tainted" right view. Interestingly, in reading the accounts of his awakening, "tainted right view" served as a basis for the Buddha's awakening.

How do you understand this sutta?

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

If you are going to quote a sutta, give the proper citation for it.

[tiltbillings]

Tilt - As for not being a motivating factor for the Bodhisatta. MN 26:


"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

What's that got to do with rebirth post mortem?

It is straightforward enough.

[Ceisiwr]

It was taken from "the great forty"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Ceisiwr]

It is straightforward enough.

My point is that it shows freedom from that which dies in the here and now, let a lone stopping any future death

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Here's an entertaining tale of post-mortem rebirth from the suttas...

MN 130: Devaduta Sutta
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/ati ... an.ati.htm



Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

It is straightforward enough.

My point is that it shows freedom from that which dies in the here and now, let a lone stopping any future death

Since the Buddha was already born, and if there were only one life, there would be no "being subject myself to birth." But the Buddha-to-be shows serious concern about being subject to birth, something that could only happen after death. And there's no reason to not take the text exactly as it is written.

[tiltbillings]

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. -- MN 117

Interestingly, the texts I have referenced show that the Buddha-to-be was functioning from the basis of the first paragraph. Don't forget that a bodhisatta is not ariya. The second paragraph describes an ariya.