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the great rebirth debate - Page 232 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:20 am


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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:24 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:38 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:38 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:47 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:55 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:59 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:06 am


Sylvester
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sylvester » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:01 am

I wonder if anyone has actually done a survey of the 4 Nikayas to see how paraloka (other world) is used, especially when contrasted with idhaloka (this world). I can't see how these suttas could possibly be interpreted in a metaphorical or allegorical way. These suttas do not seem to be those that use loka as being a metaphor for the interior world of the Aggregates. A good example would be AN 8.49, where the other world is an agreeable deva world (devaloka manāpa). I don't believe devaloka is used in the suttas to refer to our interior world, does it?

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:40 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:44 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:05 am


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:07 am


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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:38 am


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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:17 am

For my self, and almost everyone else, there is no assurance of realizing nibbana, so that being the case, your chances of realizing nibbana sometime in the future go up infinetly if you have rebirth, without rebirth we have a kind of pie in the sky, small chance of realizing nibbana, and little else, so yes I think rebirth is very important to realizing the dhamma.......As you have a thousand fold increase in your chance of realizing the dhamma over 1000 lifetimes as you do over one.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:31 am

Greetings,

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that if your thoughts are off into the future, your mind is not particularly aware of itself in the present.

That said, I'm not here to say rebirth is or isn't true. As I see it, it makes little difference what I think, because what I think/believe/speculate wouldn't change the reality of what will be in relation to "literal post mortem rebirth" anyway.

What I do know is that erroneously perceiving a self and extending this false perception of self backwards and forwards in time is not consistent with "seeing things as they really are", so I endeavour not to do it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:13 am

Thanks to lyndon taylor"s last post I now know of two ways that literal rebirth can be related to practice. The first way is that some people are uncertain of whether they may have bad rebirths so this motivates them to practice more seriously. The second is that some people view future rebirths as simply more chances at attaining nibanna. I can"t help but think that for some people the idea that future rebirths gives more chances to attain nibanna might have the effect of reducing motivation since you will get another chance anyway.....I want to make it very very very very clear that I am NOT saying that everyone with this view would have reduced motivation but I see this as a likely outcome for some people.

So, in summary, so far I know that literal rebirth view can act as a motivator for some people and as a de-motivator for others. I'm hoping to hear from people about other ways that literal rebirth view is incorporated into or effects their practice.
chownah

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:05 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:12 pm

Chownah, As I don't see you saying anything favourable for rebirth, I hardly think your opinion on what rebirth offers practitioners is of any consequence or relevence.

Retro, As to being in the moment, this is primarily a meditative technique, it would be impossible to get out of bed or simply cross the street if you did not "plan for the future", The buddha speaks extensively about practises and actions that require planning for the future, and extensilvely about past actions and former lives, that require contemplating the past. There is no way possible to live entirely in the present unless you are meditating. And obviously a person who had no plans for the future would be not only stupid, but very unable to function normally, likewise someone who did not learn from and contemplate their past.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:38 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama


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