Is everything already determined?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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clw_uk
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:57 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:37 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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clw_uk
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:42 pm

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clw_uk
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:46 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:54 pm

I believe the universe still has a bruise from the last contact.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Mawkish1983
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:22 am

Do we need two creation threads? :focus:

As I said, quantum physics shows that determinism is forbidden, the precise position and the precise momentum of a particle cannot be simultaneously known (not due to human limitation but due to a fundamental way in which the universe operates). Want evidence of this? Look at radioactive decay and quantum tunneling. We make use of these phenomena because of probability; so also look up the 'principal of equivalence'. If you observe a single radioactive atom there is no way to tell when a radioactive event will take place. We can analyse the statistics of a lot of such atoms, sure, but then only predictions can be made. The universe FORBIDS total knowledge. Determinism can only work in classical physics. Quantum physics is a rather large spanner in the works.

If we rewound the universe back in time to just after the big back then pressed play again, I think there is no reason to believe humans would still necessarily evolve (or at least, things would be different). Quantum physics and chaos theory working in unison.

It makes me wonder actually (and I know other physicists use this forum (mikenz66?) so please do help me out if I'm being stupid here), are chaos theory and the principal of equivalence compatible? I don't see how they can be, maybe chaos theory only applies to the meso-macroscopic? I don't know; shockingly I never studied chaos theory!

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Pannapetar
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Pannapetar » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:48 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:58 am


Mawkish1983
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:05 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:09 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Pannapetar
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Pannapetar » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:35 am


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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby kannada » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:59 am

Just a view - nothing more...

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adosa
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby adosa » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:00 am

Determinism by its very nature denies the Law of Kamma. The universe might be predetermined without this thing we call "mind".....especially the human mind. We have the ability to make choices. Once we make a choice to do this or do that we set of a chain of events that impacts the entire universe. In nutshell Dependent Origination. Maybe perceptively to us, maybe not, but nonetheless the course of events has veered from a predetermined course. Fortunately.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183


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