the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:57 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Alex123 wrote:You don't have meat cravings?


Have you tried quorn? It's a very satisfying alternative... ;)



I have never heard about it. I did google and it appears to suggest that it is not available (or rare) in Canada. :(

What I've just read, that it is a fungus, and people may have allergic reaction to it, alerted me.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:01 pm

Just go to any large supermarket, Whole Foods, or Trader Joes. They all have a variety of faux meats.

Currently, the most favored brands are Gardein, Beyond Meat, and Match Meats.

Many Asian markets have some very advanced faux meats, though the labeling standards are loose. Some have animal products or even small amounts of meat in them for flavoring despite being labeled "vegetarian"
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:33 am

Alex123 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Speaking just for myself, no. I wouldn't have any problem with it ethically, but personally just don't care for the taste of meat any more. I haven't knowingly or intentionally ate meat in 29 years and I feel much better, healthier and don't miss the taste.


You don't have meat cravings? That is great. I tried to be vegetarian, but I was dreaming about KFC (or salty pork lard) too much. And when I do it, I eat about 5-8 legs at a time... yummie!

Cravings.....yeah, cravings......what was it the Buddha taught we should do about cravings? Was it to just indulge in that craving to make it go away?....I forget just what he did teach about cravings.......seems like he did say something about craving.......anyone remember what he said?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:52 am

chownah wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Speaking just for myself, no. I wouldn't have any problem with it ethically, but personally just don't care for the taste of meat any more. I haven't knowingly or intentionally ate meat in 29 years and I feel much better, healthier and don't miss the taste.


You don't have meat cravings? That is great. I tried to be vegetarian, but I was dreaming about KFC (or salty pork lard) too much. And when I do it, I eat about 5-8 legs at a time... yummie!

Cravings.....yeah, cravings......what was it the Buddha taught we should do about cravings? Was it to just indulge in that craving to make it go away?....I forget just what he did teach about cravings.......seems like he did say something about craving.......anyone remember what he said?
chownah



If there is some physiological need, then...

There is also this: I often do try to eat certain nuts/seeds rather than meat, but unfortunately they are much much more expensive than meat.

I haven't looked at guorn prices, but I suspect that it might be higher than meat...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:15 am

Quorn mince isn't more expensive than meat, neither is soya mince or tofu. Different kinds of beans and chickpeas are a good souce of protein as well as nuts and also yogurt, cheese and eggs.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:57 am

Aloka wrote:Quorn mince isn't more expensive than meat, neither is soya mince or tofu. Different kinds of beans and chickpeas are a good souce of protein as well as nuts and also yogurt, cheese and eggs.

.


I'd ski the yogurt, cheese and eggs. Aside from the cholesterol and saturated fat issues, they don't have that much protein as compared to other things.

Not a new issue, it is just on my mind as I've been hearing about monks with diabetes and heart attacks.


Fortified soy milk, which is most kinds in the US, have loads of calcium in it. You can also find tofu with calcium used as the curdling agent, so that also makes it a good source.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:10 pm

Actually cheese is very high in protein, about the same as chicken and some other meats, of course the high fat content is another issue, but a lot of meats have that too. Cheese has more than twice the protein of nuts for instance. Cheese is about 25% protein by weight 7gm protein/28 gm serving.

Actually all this info is from google searches, so please forgive me if there are any inaccuracies.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:36 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
Aloka wrote:Quorn mince isn't more expensive than meat, neither is soya mince or tofu. Different kinds of beans and chickpeas are a good souce of protein as well as nuts and also yogurt, cheese and eggs.

.


I'd ski the yogurt, cheese and eggs. Aside from the cholesterol and saturated fat issues, they don't have that much protein as compared to other things.

Not a new issue, it is just on my mind as I've been hearing about monks with diabetes and heart attacks.



from the info on a container in my fridge ....in 100grams of low fat natural cottage cheese there's 10.7 grams of protein, one gram of saturated fat and 73 calories.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:43 pm

I was refering to regular cheese, like cheddar, or provolone. On average meat has 7gm/oz of protein, same for cheese, hard cheeses can have up to 10gm/oz, cottage cheese is very low 1.9gm/oz
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18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:45 pm

Aloka wrote:from the info on a container in my fridge ....in 100grams of low fat natural cottage cheese there's 10.7 grams of protein, one gram of saturated fat and 73 calories.


Personally for me, that is LOW amount. In meat for example the number is 20+. Cashews can have 18g and if I remember correctly pumpkin seeds 20g+.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:53 pm

Nuts are about 3-4 gms/oz protein. It all depends on your serving size, how much protein you get, but high protein foods like cheese and meat, you have to eat less amount to get the same amount of protein.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:48 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Nuts are about 3-4 gms/oz protein. It all depends on your serving size, how much protein you get, but high protein foods like cheese and meat, you have to eat less amount to get the same amount of protein.


Cheese, eggs and nuts aren't really high protein foods when you look at the total amount of protein you get per a usual serving.
It is certainly not the case when you look at the amount of protein you get for the amount of calories ( and fat ) you consume.

You can get much more protein, with much fewer calories and fats via legumes ( beans ). Lentils, peas, mung beans ( also called moong dahl in Asia ) and black eyed peas are very high in protein, very low is "gas", and fairly fast cooking ( 20 - 40 minutes ).

They are also much better for the planet than cheese, eggs and meat, which generate much more pollution in their production. Those foods also require more human edible food than it produces. Not cool in an overpopulated and hungry world.

You can learn more about using legumes here
http://beforewisdom.com/blog/cooking/beans-2/
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:39 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Funny you should say that about chicken, I have this kind of belief that if you could eat only one kind of meat, it should be chicken, something about eating the least advanced animal in our food chain,


An adult chicken might be smarter than a 4 year old child
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/chic ... -1.1428277
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:16 am

As I haven't eaten any young children, I can't really compare them to chicken!!! Anyway I'm full vegetarian now, so that means no chicken, or young children......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:24 am

Jhana4 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Funny you should say that about chicken, I have this kind of belief that if you could eat only one kind of meat, it should be chicken, something about eating the least advanced animal in our food chain,


An adult chicken might be smarter than a 4 year old child
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/chic ... -1.1428277

I read some of the article.....an example of why chickens are "smart" is that a mother hen who tastes unpalatable food in a bowl of a certain color will warn her children to not eat from that color of bowl even if it has good food in it. To me this seems pretty dumb....she is warning her children away from perfectly good food.....if you raise your kids this way it is unlikely they will ever pass the college entrance exams! I think that what has been proven in the article is that a 4 year old child might be smarter than an adult scientist!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:32 am

Ajhan Sumedho's experience with vegetarian diet:
===========
I found myself
aiming for the vegetarian dishes first so that I could
pass them out according to my own needs. It brought
up a really childish tendency in me. Then one day
another monk saw me doing this, so he grabbed the
vegetarian dish first and only gave me a little spoonful.
I was so angry when I saw that. I took this fermented
fish sauce, this really strong stuff and when I went past
his bowl, I splattered it all over his food! Fortunately,
we were forbidden to hit each other. This is an
absolute necessity for men — to have rules against
physical violence!
:)

Page 28

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/intui ... reness.pdf
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:37 pm

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:23 am

SarathW wrote:Ajhan Sumedho's experience with vegetarian diet:
===========
I found myself
aiming for the vegetarian dishes first so that I could
pass them out according to my own needs. It brought
up a really childish tendency in me. Then one day
another monk saw me doing this, so he grabbed the
vegetarian dish first and only gave me a little spoonful.
I was so angry when I saw that. I took this fermented
fish sauce, this really strong stuff and when I went past
his bowl, I splattered it all over his food! Fortunately,
we were forbidden to hit each other. This is an
absolute necessity for men — to have rules against
physical violence!
:)

Page 28

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/intui ... reness.pdf


So what is the meaning behind posting this quote? To show that people who care enough to try reduce the suffering of animals are foolish for trying and to try scare people who are starting to think like that so they will not even try for fear of being ostracized.

Good thing the historical Buddha wasn't scared of being different for a principal or we wouldn't have the good things we have now.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:10 am

Jhana4 wrote:To show that people who care enough to try reduce the suffering of animals are foolish for trying and to try scare people who are starting to think like that so they will not even try for fear of being ostracized.


Well, samsara is dukkha.

Carnivores eat other animals. Even if humans don't eat chicken, or rabbit, the fox or some other carnivore will. The big predator fish can eat smaller fish... And unlike humans, they do not have humane way of killing their prey.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dagon » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:24 am

Jhana4 wrote:
SarathW wrote:Ajhan Sumedho's experience with vegetarian diet:
===========
I found myself
aiming for the vegetarian dishes first so that I could
pass them out according to my own needs. It brought
up a really childish tendency in me. Then one day
another monk saw me doing this, so he grabbed the
vegetarian dish first and only gave me a little spoonful.
I was so angry when I saw that. I took this fermented
fish sauce, this really strong stuff and when I went past
his bowl, I splattered it all over his food! Fortunately,
we were forbidden to hit each other. This is an
absolute necessity for men — to have rules against
physical violence!
:)

Page 28

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/intui ... reness.pdf


So what is the meaning behind posting this quote? To show that people who care enough to try reduce the suffering of animals are foolish for trying and to try scare people who are starting to think like that so they will not even try for fear of being ostracized.

Good thing the historical Buddha wasn't scared of being different for a principal or we wouldn't have the good things we have now.


Prephaps the text that follows the text you have quoted may help ..

I was trying to live up to an ideal of vegetarian purity,
and yet in the process having these really violent
feelings towards other monks. What’s this about? ItIntuitive Awareness 29
was a vindictive act to splatter all that strong chili
sauce with rotten fish in it over some monk’s food. It
was a violent act in order for me to keep a sense that
I’m a pure vegetarian. So I began to question whether
I wanted to make food into such a big deal in my life.
Was I wanting to live my life as a vegetarian or what?
Was that the main focus that I was aiming at? Just
contemplating this, I began to see the suffering I
created around my idealism. I noticed Luang Por
Chah certainly enjoyed his food and he had a joyful
presence. It wasn’t like an ascetic trip where you’re
eating nettle soup and rejecting the good bits; that’s
the other extreme.


Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians - some of the kindest are vegetarians - i guess that it is what is going on in the mind and how the self is identified that makes the difference, not the menu choices that are made.

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