Mercy killing and kamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by daverupa »

We would all probably benefit from a thread discussing ethical imperatives and whether or not they need to be housed in metaphysics (rebirth, in this case, though a similar Xian example would be the claim that being ethical requires God). The Great Ethical Substrate Thread?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Feathers
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by Feathers »

I am genuinely intrigued by Coyote's suggestion of a difference between our normal understanding of 'motivation' and Buddhist cetana, I'd be interested to see a thread exploring that more deeply.

Nonetheless, I think on this specific moral issue the right thing to do, however we arrive at that conclusion, is to do what's best for the animal - and I'm pretty convinced that's killing it, sadly.
Arali
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by Arali »

In the Dhammapada there's a story of the Buddha visiting a hunter and his family. Regarding the wife of the hunter, a monk asked the Buddha if she, like her husband, was guilty of taking life, since she facilitated the act. The Buddha said (more or less) that Sotapanna, (which the wife was as she had gained an intuitive understanding of the dharma as a young girl) do not kill and the do not wish for others to be killed, the wife was only obeying her husband in fetching things for him. Just as a hand with no wound is not affected by poison, because she has no intention to do evil, she is not doing evil.

Verse 124: "If there is no wound on the hand, one may handle poison; poison does not affect one who has no wound; there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention"

You said you felt troubled about what had happened. If the action was right, if the intention was right, you shouldn't have felt troubled.

Regardless of the outcome, if you had tried for help, or left the bird to pass naturally, you would not have broken the first precept and so your hand would have no wound. In those scenarios you'd be like the hunter's wife.

I feel like you're trying to convince us, or yourself,of something. What happened was unfortunate. I'm sorry that you found yourself in that situation.
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mirco
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by mirco »

Dhamma Greetings,
clw_uk wrote:But a human can experience dukkha, learn from it and be free from it. Animals can't.
Would you agree in that animals do experience dukhha? (pain, fear, etc.)

Best Wishes,
:-)
beeblebrox
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by beeblebrox »

I wonder what the bird's impression would be if a person stroked it, and comforted it till it died?

Will it be freaked out, or end up liking that to some extent?

Also, what kind of effects would that have on the person?

What kind of impression would this give to other people who were around? This impression also could vary depending on whether the person seemed silly doing it, or made it seem pointless, or if he managed to make it seem sincere or impressive.

It could be a good practice in itself... (or not) just throwing in some thoughts into the mix.

:anjali:
SarathW
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by SarathW »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:A reply by Mahāsi Sayādaw on The Practice of Euthanasia

A specific case from the Vinaya:

A bhikkhu, out of compassion, once said to an Execution, “Kill him with one blow.” The execution did as the bhikkhu said. They reported this matter to the Blessed One, who told the bhikkhu: “You have fallen into an offence of defeat.”

The volition at the moment of killing is rooted in aversion (dosa), so it is unwholesome kamma. The right thing to do is to take the bird from the cat, put it in a quiet and safe place, and leave it to die of it's injuries (if you don't have the skill to heal it).
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retrofuturist
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The volition at the moment of killing is rooted in aversion (dosa), so it is unwholesome kamma.
Personally, I would put the word "If" at the start of this sentence.

The kammic quality of bodily action is determined by the kammic quality of the associated mind-state, not the other way around.

It is not inconceivable that the mindstate accompanying bodily actions that result in killing could be other than aversion. Do those who facilitate euthanasia (or instances of "oops... too much morphine") always do so with aversion? I think not.

The only way you can know for sure if to be observant of the quality of your own mind, through mindfulness (e.g. satipatthana and associated practices)... not by making blanket judgements on others.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by SarathW »

There is no if and buts here Retro.
Metta
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retrofuturist
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,

Without penetrating the minds of all human beings, I do not see how you could possibly know that to be the case.

Your absolutes seem to be based on faith and faith alone... and you'll have to excuse me if I do not partake in such views, and opt to watch the actual kammic quality of the mind instead.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by SarathW »

Hi Retro
Kamma is caused by words, deeds and thoughts.
They are interdependent and mutually inclusive.
Not mutually exclusive.
I want you to have a hard look on this.
When you come to Kamma you need to have faith.
Because Kamma is one of the unthinkable.
Kind regards
sarath
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“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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retrofuturist
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,

No, kamma is to be known... not regarded exclusively as a matter of faith.
AN 6.63 wrote:"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.
If you don't wish to know it and would rather regard it exclusively as a matter of faith, you're welcome to do so but I choose to do otherwise.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Nikaya35
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by Nikaya35 »

clw_uk wrote:
maitreya31 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Your also confusing the animal experience of dukkha with the human experience of it. Humans can be free from dukkha, animals can't.
From the point of view of one life . There isn't much difference between humans and animals . The suffering of terminal illness can be ended in both animals and humans by killing the victim . Instant nirvana .

Straw man alert!


Firstly my questioning doesn't have a background premis of "one life"


Secondly even if there was more than one life, animals still cant be free from dukkha in this life. I never read a sutta ehere the Buddha preaces to birds like St Francis of Assisi
You are the one with a straw man . I never said that you are claiming in this thread " there is only one life" . You said that humans can be free from dukkha but animals can't be free from dukkha . I was pointing out this is true from a certain point of view . That's true from the point of view of rebirth . According to the sutras humans can attain liberation from suffering and animals cant but from the point of view of one life there isn't a difference between humans and animals . Both will attain liberation from suffering at death .
Last edited by Nikaya35 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Annihilation isn't nibbana, and nowhere does the Buddha make such a claim.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Nikaya35
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by Nikaya35 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Annihilation isn't nibbana, and nowhere does the Buddha make such a claim.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I agree with that . :thumbsup:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

So what did you mean by this then...?
The suffering of terminal illness can be ended in both animals and humans by killing the victim . Instant nirvana .
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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