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The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
santa100
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:30 pm

I'd suppose when one's reached such advanced stages of meditation, one'd be able to push beyond the physiological/mental ceiling of regular human being. If we only look at it from within the regular biological scope, none of the supernatural attainments of the Buddha and His noble disciples mentioned in many suttas would even be possible (the Chalabhinna of supernormal powers/psychic powers, clairaudience, telepathy, recollection of past lives, clairvoyance, ...)..

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daverupa
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:43 pm


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polarbear101
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:01 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

santa100
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:08 pm


santa100
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:27 pm


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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:01 pm

It should be pointed out that Ajahn Lee's talk about the breath and breath channels and all that are definitely not literal, but conceptual ways of understanding the link between breath and awareness. Although it's hard to separate where the literal stuff ends and the metaphor begins, I don't think Ajahn Lee or Thanisarro are actually claiming that we really breath through our skin. When I spoke with Thanisarro, he always seemed to be clear that the through-the-skin concept was more the encourage relaxed and non-forced breathing.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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daverupa
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:33 pm


santa100
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:09 pm


SarathW
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby SarathW » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:15 pm

Is it possible air to get in to our body if you are not breathing?
What I meant was can't air go through your nostrils to lungs even if you are not breathing, as the same way air getting to a room? :juggling:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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polarbear101
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:46 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Spiny Norman
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:42 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

SarathW
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby SarathW » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:57 pm

Some info regarding op:

=================================
In discerning41 the formation is gross, and it is subtle in the
first jhána access; also it is gross in that (and) subtle in the first
jhána; in the first jhána and second jhána access it is gross, (and)
in the second jhána subtle; in the second jhána and third jhána
access it is gross, (and) in the third jhána subtle; in the third
jhána and fourth jhána access it is gross, and in the fourth jhána
it is exceedingly subtle and even reaches suspension. This is the
opinion of the Dìgha and Saíyutta reciters. But the Majjhima
reciters would have it that it is more subtle in the access than in
the jhána immediately below,
(saying) “in the first jhána it is
gross, in the second jhána access it is subtle” (and so on). It is
however, the opinion of all that the occurrence of the bodily
formation at the time of not discerning is tranquillized at the
time of discerning; the bodily formation that arose at the time of
discerning is tranquillized in the first jhána access … the bodily
formation that arose in the fourth jhána access is tranquillized in
the fourth jhána. This is the method in so far as concerns


Page 20

http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp502s.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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seeker242
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby seeker242 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:57 am

"The fifth through the eighth jhanas are the “absorptions without form.” This is because they refer to states of consciousness where there is no perception of a form or body." http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... y_of_Space

"The immaterial jhanas are designated, not by numerical names like their predecessors, but by the names of their objective spheres: the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.[18] They receive the designation "immaterial" or " formless" (arupa) because they are achieved by surmounting all perceptions of material form," http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 1.html#ch4

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, Ananda, he could..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Where does it say that the body actually stops breathing? Everything I have seen says that the perception of body breathing ceases, not the actual body breathing? AKA no longer "percipient of... wind with regard to ... wind"

percipient
adj.
Having the power of perceiving

If you no longer have any perception of body or breathing, you could rightly say "breathing has ceased" while the body is still breathing all by itself.

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Zom
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby Zom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:08 pm

Sutta SN 36.11 says about "in-out breathing" and not about "perception of in-out breathing". So yes, breath completely stops in 4th jhana. As well as all mental formations completely stop in sannya-vedaita-nirodha. And as all defilements stop when reaching arahantship ,)

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications.
- When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.
- When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased.
- When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased.
- When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
- When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased.
- When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.

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seeker242
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby seeker242 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:14 pm


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Zom
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby Zom » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:23 am

There is.

"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


As you can see, these are separate fabrications from mental fabrications which are "feelings and perceptions".

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daverupa
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:31 am

This doesn't appear to make much epistemological sense; if the jhanas are without perception of the five physical senses, bodily breathing wouldn't be apparent to the individual in jhana, ever, to say nothing of it arising or ceasing. Therefore, this statement that the breath physically ceases would never be something that could be verified for oneself here and now.

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Zom
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby Zom » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Well, in the 4th jhana you actually can see if there is a breathing or not since this is not arupa-loka, where you no longer perceive forms. So, as I see it, it can be verified here and now by oneself. The only problem is to reach 4th jhana.

Btw, all proficient meditatiors do know that breath becomes very refined long before even 1st jhana. What to say about 4th -)

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daverupa
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:50 pm


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beeblebrox
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Re: The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:39 pm



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