Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby Justsit » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:09 pm

Did you read PeterB's post??
There is a very big difference between "humanizing your presentation" and actually opening your heart and sharing your experiences with living persons.

It's OK that you don't agree with AA, DL, no one is saying AA is the answer to everyone's problems with addiction. You are absolutely right, it doesn't work for everyone. It obviously hasn't worked for you, you found something else, why now try to denigrate something that does work for many others??

Different strokes, friend. All OK.

Think I'll move along now. Best wishes and long sobriety to all.
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby danieLion » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:13 pm

Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its not about systems, perfect or imperfect.
Its not about stats or arms -length studies or the opining of the learned.
Its all about warm, imperfect, inconsistent human beings giving support to other imperfect and inconsistent human beings in need.
With all the messiness and variability and subjectivity that is implied in that.
I spend part of my working week in a Therapeutic Community which provides a service for human beings with a range of challenges..alcohol abuse is common to many.
When we are able to help it has nothing to do with text books or cross referring to various studies. We are most successful we we open our hearts to the raw emotional needs of the clients.
not
I suspect it may be similar with AA groups.

I see a lot of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking, Overgeneralizing ("it's/it's not all about") and Labelling/perfectionism (perfect/imperfect) here (cf. David D. Burns cognitive disortions). Cognitive distortions interfere with recovery. It looks like false dichotomizing to me to say "it's not all about a, b, & c, but it is all about x, y & z." Many of the studies I cited include a very human element, and being learned is not de-humanizing. And I didn't cite any textbooks. Nothing in what I've said is in opposition to the heart-medicine you describe, but rather in concert with it.
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby danieLion » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:17 pm

Hi Justsit,
Justsit wrote:You are absolutely right, it doesn't work for everyone. It obviously hasn't worked for you, you found something else, why now try to denigrate something that does work for many others??

Different strokes, friend. All OK.

I never said the 12 Steps didn't work for me. I said parts of them did, and parts of them didn't. I'm not denigrating, I'm exploring, and as I said in my blog, I have no issues with people experimenting with 12 Step programs. And as far as it working for "many others," it depends on what you mean by "many."
Kindly,
dL
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby danieLion » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:18 am

Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its a bit like reading a critique of lifebelts with a critical appraisal of materials and a neat cost anaylsis, in the middle of a storm while ships are foundering.

Several people I know in SMART Recovery utilize cost-benefit analysis to great effect.
Using the CBA (Cost-Benefit Analysis Tool)
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/ ... ksheet.pdf
Four Questions About My Addiction
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/ ... ut/CBA.pdf
Kindly,
dL
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby danieLion » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:22 am

danieLion wrote:Yes, perhaps that would've been better. It alos would've have been better if I'd not used the word "criticize.

I take it back. There's nothing wrong with critiquing. The Buddha did it all the time. Some critiques are valid, some are not. My critique is valid, but I'm open to persuasion.
Kindly,
dL
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:33 am

Greetings,

Different people have different ways of looking at things - problems only arise when people expect that everyone must view things as they see them.

As for me, I'm appreciative of different perspectives, and I imagine that if there's someone who views things like me (yet suffers from alcoholism), I'd like to think that they can review topics like this, take from it what they find useful, and move on to a better future.

:namaste:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby robertk » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:43 am

Yes I found rhe topoc quite interesting. And I think for anyone who is struggling with addict ion it would be useful ti know of the various approaches
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby JeffR » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:16 am

Justsit wrote:danieLion and JeffR,

No one in AA says that it is the ONLY way for everyone. Where do you get that idea


This is a flat out lie.

I can't count the number of people who've told me this in one way or another, but if you were to send me $10 for every one that has, I'm confident it'd pay my mortgage for a month.
I know people who've had/have AA meetings as part of their sentence with the judge telling them that AA is the ONLY way they're going to stop drinking and getting into trouble. The chaplain at one of the prisons I go to tells the inmates that going to AA and "coming home to God" is the only way they will ever stop drinking. This results in a number of people surrendering to the belief that there is no hope for them and they are doomed to a life as a drunk, since AA did nothing for them.

It may, indeed, be the only way for some people, but there is no claim that it works for everyone, all the time.

So AA didn't work for you - no big deal. Go try something else.
Is someone trying to force you to go??

Put that in the past tense and change "someone" to "bunches of people" and the answer is YES.

I've never had a need for AA and never considered going. I don't consider myself to have ever been an alcoholic, although many people tried to convince me I was. I drank a lot and I drank often because I CHOSE to. I have had a lot of pesky meddlers (stupid jerks) try to convince me that I am an alcoholic and I had a problem and I NEEDED to join AA because it is the ONLY way to save/redeem my "self" or "get the help I need". I stopped getting drunk because I no longer desired to get drunk. I stopped with the 2-3 drinks most nights because I no longer desired the dullness of mind; I had begun a meditation practice and now desire sharpness and clarity of mind instead.
:toast:
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby danieLion » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:35 am

Thanks Retro and robertk. :heart:
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby PeterB » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:13 am

danieLion wrote:Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its not about systems, perfect or imperfect.
Its not about stats or arms -length studies or the opining of the learned.
Its all about warm, imperfect, inconsistent human beings giving support to other imperfect and inconsistent human beings in need.
With all the messiness and variability and subjectivity that is implied in that.
I spend part of my working week in a Therapeutic Community which provides a service for human beings with a range of challenges..alcohol abuse is common to many.
When we are able to help it has nothing to do with text books or cross referring to various studies. We are most successful we we open our hearts to the raw emotional needs of the clients.
not
I suspect it may be similar with AA groups.

I see a lot of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking, Overgeneralizing ("it's/it's not all about") and Labelling/perfectionism (perfect/imperfect) here (cf. David D. Burns cognitive disortions). Cognitive distortions interfere with recovery. It looks like false dichotomizing to me to say "it's not all about a, b, & c, but it is all about x, y & z." Many of the studies I cited include a very human element, and being learned is not de-humanizing. And I didn't cite any textbooks. Nothing in what I've said is in opposition to the heart-medicine you describe, but rather in concert with it.
Kindly,
dL

You missed entirely what the ' all ' was about.
Whatever system , however perfect, however well or badly it might meet abstract criteria in terms of the descriptions of aetiology and no matter how accurate it might be in terms of predicted outcomes it will be applied at the level of the interface between provider and client by imperfect and inconsistent human beings to imperfect and inconsistent human beings. The interventions will be as effective as the relationship is viable.
This is the difference between any critique and actual daily experience.
But I know that no form of words will avail here. I do read the forum regularly.

May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby PeterB » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:14 am

danieLion wrote:Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its not about systems, perfect or imperfect.
Its not about stats or arms -length studies or the opining of the learned.
Its all about warm, imperfect, inconsistent human beings giving support to other imperfect and inconsistent human beings in need.
With all the messiness and variability and subjectivity that is implied in that.
I spend part of my working week in a Therapeutic Community which provides a service for human beings with a range of challenges..alcohol abuse is common to many.
When we are able to help it has nothing to do with text books or cross referring to various studies. We are most successful we we open our hearts to the raw emotional needs of the clients.
not
I suspect it may be similar with AA groups.

I see a lot of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking, Overgeneralizing ("it's/it's not all about") and Labelling/perfectionism (perfect/imperfect) here (cf. David D. Burns cognitive disortions). Cognitive distortions interfere with recovery. It looks like false dichotomizing to me to say "it's not all about a, b, & c, but it is all about x, y & z." Many of the studies I cited include a very human element, and being learned is not de-humanizing. And I didn't cite any textbooks. Nothing in what I've said is in opposition to the heart-medicine you describe, but rather in concert with it.
Kindly,
dL

You missed entirely what the ' all ' was about.
Whatever system , however perfect, however well or badly it might meet abstract criteria in terms of the descriptions of aetiology and no matter how accurate it might be in terms of predicted outcomes it will be applied at the level of the interface between provider and client by imperfect and inconsistent human beings to imperfect and inconsistent human beings. The interventions will be as effective as the relationship is viable.
This is the difference between any critique and actual daily experience.
But I know that no form of words will avail here. I do read the forum regularly.

May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:18 am

PeterB wrote:May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.


Seconded.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:55 am

Ben wrote:
PeterB wrote:May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.


Seconded.
It is what it really comes down to, far more than any technique, the human element of com-passion, sym-pathy, em-pathy, or in Pali, anu-kampati, to move with.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:24 am

danieLion wrote:Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its a bit like reading a critique of lifebelts with a critical appraisal of materials and a neat cost anaylsis, in the middle of a storm while ships are foundering.

Several people I know in SMART Recovery utilize cost-benefit analysis to great effect.
Using the CBA (Cost-Benefit Analysis Tool)
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/ ... ksheet.pdf
Four Questions About My Addiction
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/ ... ut/CBA.pdf
Kindly,
dL



I dont know what kind of exposure some of you guys had to AA but it certainly seems different than mine.
Also, I was just looking at that cost benefit tool and i honestly beleive that what it is talking about when it uses the word "addiction" and my alcoholism are different things. My alcoholism didnt respond to such polite treatment. With my alcoholism the cost benefit analysis was simple, stop drinking and live, continue and die.
How long has smart recovery been in existence? Where does the money from that "donate" link go?
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:03 pm

JeffR wrote:
Justsit wrote:danieLion and JeffR,

No one in AA says that it is the ONLY way for everyone. Where do you get that idea


This is a flat out lie.

I can't count the number of people who've told me this in one way or another, but if you were to send me $10 for every one that has, I'm confident it'd pay my mortgage for a month.
I know people who've had/have AA meetings as part of their sentence with the judge telling them that AA is the ONLY way they're going to stop drinking and getting into trouble. The chaplain at one of the prisons I go to tells the inmates that going to AA and "coming home to God" is the only way they will ever stop drinking. This results in a number of people surrendering to the belief that there is no hope for them and they are doomed to a life as a drunk, since AA did nothing for them.

It may, indeed, be the only way for some people, but there is no claim that it works for everyone, all the time.

So AA didn't work for you - no big deal. Go try something else.
Is someone trying to force you to go??

Put that in the past tense and change "someone" to "bunches of people" and the answer is YES.

I've never had a need for AA and never considered going. I don't consider myself to have ever been an alcoholic, although many people tried to convince me I was. I drank a lot and I drank often because I CHOSE to. I have had a lot of pesky meddlers (stupid jerks) try to convince me that I am an alcoholic and I had a problem and I NEEDED to join AA because it is the ONLY way to save/redeem my "self" or "get the help I need". I stopped getting drunk because I no longer desired to get drunk. I stopped with the 2-3 drinks most nights because I no longer desired the dullness of mind; I had begun a meditation practice and now desire sharpness and clarity of mind instead.
:toast:


That chaplin is doing a disservice to people who might otherwise be helped if he is presenting AA as exclusively theist.
If you can control your drinking just by deciding to you are probably not an alcoholic, congratulations :)
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby chownah » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:20 pm

I think a lot of the differences of opinion here are due to different definitions of alcoholism. Some people think that to be alcoholic one must drink so heavily that it constitutes a health hazard. For me alcoholism means needing to drink alcohol at some level or life will be unsatisfactory......for example, by my definition if an alcoholic is forced to give up alcohol consumption then they will be miserable and will probably begin drinking again at first opportunity but it does not mean that they would necessarily drink to the point of ill health.
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:19 pm

Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association
"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."


http://step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html

Thats what i mean when i use the term.
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby onaquest » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:38 am

Wow! A newcomer's meeting, how delightful
:group:
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:33 am

:rofl:
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Postby chownah » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:50 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association
"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."


http://step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html

Thats what i mean when i use the term.

So if we should discuss something related to alcoholism we should be very careful in mutually understanding which definition we are to use in the discussion.....otherwise it is pretty much inevitable that we will be talking past each other.
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