Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Different people have different ways of looking at things - problems only arise when people expect that everyone must view things as they see them.

As for me, I'm appreciative of different perspectives, and I imagine that if there's someone who views things like me (yet suffers from alcoholism), I'd like to think that they can review topics like this, take from it what they find useful, and move on to a better future.

:namaste:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by robertk »

Yes I found rhe topoc quite interesting. And I think for anyone who is struggling with addict ion it would be useful ti know of the various approaches
User avatar
JeffR
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:54 am
Location: Minnesota, Lakota Nation (Occupier)

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by JeffR »

Justsit wrote:danieLion and JeffR,

No one in AA says that it is the ONLY way for everyone. Where do you get that idea
This is a flat out lie.

I can't count the number of people who've told me this in one way or another, but if you were to send me $10 for every one that has, I'm confident it'd pay my mortgage for a month.
I know people who've had/have AA meetings as part of their sentence with the judge telling them that AA is the ONLY way they're going to stop drinking and getting into trouble. The chaplain at one of the prisons I go to tells the inmates that going to AA and "coming home to God" is the only way they will ever stop drinking. This results in a number of people surrendering to the belief that there is no hope for them and they are doomed to a life as a drunk, since AA did nothing for them.
It may, indeed, be the only way for some people, but there is no claim that it works for everyone, all the time.

So AA didn't work for you - no big deal. Go try something else.
Is someone trying to force you to go??
Put that in the past tense and change "someone" to "bunches of people" and the answer is YES.

I've never had a need for AA and never considered going. I don't consider myself to have ever been an alcoholic, although many people tried to convince me I was. I drank a lot and I drank often because I CHOSE to. I have had a lot of pesky meddlers (stupid jerks) try to convince me that I am an alcoholic and I had a problem and I NEEDED to join AA because it is the ONLY way to save/redeem my "self" or "get the help I need". I stopped getting drunk because I no longer desired to get drunk. I stopped with the 2-3 drinks most nights because I no longer desired the dullness of mind; I had begun a meditation practice and now desire sharpness and clarity of mind instead.
:toast:
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
:Vibh 945
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Thanks Retro and robertk. :heart:
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by PeterB »

danieLion wrote:Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its not about systems, perfect or imperfect.
Its not about stats or arms -length studies or the opining of the learned.
Its all about warm, imperfect, inconsistent human beings giving support to other imperfect and inconsistent human beings in need.
With all the messiness and variability and subjectivity that is implied in that.
I spend part of my working week in a Therapeutic Community which provides a service for human beings with a range of challenges..alcohol abuse is common to many.
When we are able to help it has nothing to do with text books or cross referring to various studies. We are most successful we we open our hearts to the raw emotional needs of the clients.
not
I suspect it may be similar with AA groups.
I see a lot of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking, Overgeneralizing ("it's/it's not all about") and Labelling/perfectionism (perfect/imperfect) here (cf. David D. Burns cognitive disortions). Cognitive distortions interfere with recovery. It looks like false dichotomizing to me to say "it's not all about a, b, & c, but it is all about x, y & z." Many of the studies I cited include a very human element, and being learned is not de-humanizing. And I didn't cite any textbooks. Nothing in what I've said is in opposition to the heart-medicine you describe, but rather in concert with it.
Kindly,
dL
You missed entirely what the ' all ' was about.
Whatever system , however perfect, however well or badly it might meet abstract criteria in terms of the descriptions of aetiology and no matter how accurate it might be in terms of predicted outcomes it will be applied at the level of the interface between provider and client by imperfect and inconsistent human beings to imperfect and inconsistent human beings. The interventions will be as effective as the relationship is viable.
This is the difference between any critique and actual daily experience.
But I know that no form of words will avail here. I do read the forum regularly.

May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by PeterB »

danieLion wrote:Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its not about systems, perfect or imperfect.
Its not about stats or arms -length studies or the opining of the learned.
Its all about warm, imperfect, inconsistent human beings giving support to other imperfect and inconsistent human beings in need.
With all the messiness and variability and subjectivity that is implied in that.
I spend part of my working week in a Therapeutic Community which provides a service for human beings with a range of challenges..alcohol abuse is common to many.
When we are able to help it has nothing to do with text books or cross referring to various studies. We are most successful we we open our hearts to the raw emotional needs of the clients.
not
I suspect it may be similar with AA groups.
I see a lot of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking, Overgeneralizing ("it's/it's not all about") and Labelling/perfectionism (perfect/imperfect) here (cf. David D. Burns cognitive disortions). Cognitive distortions interfere with recovery. It looks like false dichotomizing to me to say "it's not all about a, b, & c, but it is all about x, y & z." Many of the studies I cited include a very human element, and being learned is not de-humanizing. And I didn't cite any textbooks. Nothing in what I've said is in opposition to the heart-medicine you describe, but rather in concert with it.
Kindly,
dL
You missed entirely what the ' all ' was about.
Whatever system , however perfect, however well or badly it might meet abstract criteria in terms of the descriptions of aetiology and no matter how accurate it might be in terms of predicted outcomes it will be applied at the level of the interface between provider and client by imperfect and inconsistent human beings to imperfect and inconsistent human beings. The interventions will be as effective as the relationship is viable.
This is the difference between any critique and actual daily experience.
But I know that no form of words will avail here. I do read the forum regularly.

May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by Ben »

PeterB wrote:May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.
Seconded.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:
PeterB wrote:May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.
Seconded.
It is what it really comes down to, far more than any technique, the human element of com-passion, sym-pathy, em-pathy, or in Pali, anu-kampati, to move with.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck »

danieLion wrote:Hi PeterB
PeterB wrote:Its a bit like reading a critique of lifebelts with a critical appraisal of materials and a neat cost anaylsis, in the middle of a storm while ships are foundering.
Several people I know in SMART Recovery utilize cost-benefit analysis to great effect.
Using the CBA (Cost-Benefit Analysis Tool)
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/ ... ksheet.pdf
Four Questions About My Addiction
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/ ... ut/CBA.pdf
Kindly,
dL

I dont know what kind of exposure some of you guys had to AA but it certainly seems different than mine.
Also, I was just looking at that cost benefit tool and i honestly beleive that what it is talking about when it uses the word "addiction" and my alcoholism are different things. My alcoholism didnt respond to such polite treatment. With my alcoholism the cost benefit analysis was simple, stop drinking and live, continue and die.
How long has smart recovery been in existence? Where does the money from that "donate" link go?
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck »

JeffR wrote:
Justsit wrote:danieLion and JeffR,

No one in AA says that it is the ONLY way for everyone. Where do you get that idea
This is a flat out lie.

I can't count the number of people who've told me this in one way or another, but if you were to send me $10 for every one that has, I'm confident it'd pay my mortgage for a month.
I know people who've had/have AA meetings as part of their sentence with the judge telling them that AA is the ONLY way they're going to stop drinking and getting into trouble. The chaplain at one of the prisons I go to tells the inmates that going to AA and "coming home to God" is the only way they will ever stop drinking. This results in a number of people surrendering to the belief that there is no hope for them and they are doomed to a life as a drunk, since AA did nothing for them.
It may, indeed, be the only way for some people, but there is no claim that it works for everyone, all the time.

So AA didn't work for you - no big deal. Go try something else.
Is someone trying to force you to go??
Put that in the past tense and change "someone" to "bunches of people" and the answer is YES.

I've never had a need for AA and never considered going. I don't consider myself to have ever been an alcoholic, although many people tried to convince me I was. I drank a lot and I drank often because I CHOSE to. I have had a lot of pesky meddlers (stupid jerks) try to convince me that I am an alcoholic and I had a problem and I NEEDED to join AA because it is the ONLY way to save/redeem my "self" or "get the help I need". I stopped getting drunk because I no longer desired to get drunk. I stopped with the 2-3 drinks most nights because I no longer desired the dullness of mind; I had begun a meditation practice and now desire sharpness and clarity of mind instead.
:toast:
That chaplin is doing a disservice to people who might otherwise be helped if he is presenting AA as exclusively theist.
If you can control your drinking just by deciding to you are probably not an alcoholic, congratulations :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by chownah »

I think a lot of the differences of opinion here are due to different definitions of alcoholism. Some people think that to be alcoholic one must drink so heavily that it constitutes a health hazard. For me alcoholism means needing to drink alcohol at some level or life will be unsatisfactory......for example, by my definition if an alcoholic is forced to give up alcohol consumption then they will be miserable and will probably begin drinking again at first opportunity but it does not mean that they would necessarily drink to the point of ill health.
chownah
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck »

Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association
"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."
http://step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html

Thats what i mean when i use the term.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
onaquest
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:32 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by onaquest »

Wow! A newcomer's meeting, how delightful
:group:
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck »

:rofl:
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by chownah »

m0rl0ck wrote:
Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association
"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."
http://step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html

Thats what i mean when i use the term.
So if we should discuss something related to alcoholism we should be very careful in mutually understanding which definition we are to use in the discussion.....otherwise it is pretty much inevitable that we will be talking past each other.
chownah
Post Reply