Iti 3.23 Escape

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Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:42 am

Iti 3.23 Escape
Translated by John Ireland


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-072

This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, there are these three elements of escape. What three? The escape from sensual desires, that is, renunciation; the escape from form, that is, the formless; and the escape from whatever has come to be, from whatever is conditioned and dependently arisen, that is, cessation [34]. These, bhikkhus, are the three elements of escape."

    Having known the escape from sensual desires
    And the overcoming of forms,
    One whose energy is always ardent
    Reaches the stilling of all formations. [35]

    Such a bhikkhu who sees rightly
    Is thereby well released.
    Accomplished in knowledge, at peace,
    That sage has overcome all bonds. [36]

Notes:

[34] Renunciation (nekkhamma) refers here to the first absorption (jhana), which is the entry into the form realm (rupavacara) by leaving behind the realm of sensual desires (kamavacara); it is attained when the mind is "isolated" (vivicca) from sensual desires and other unwholesome states. The "formless" (aruppa) is a formless-sphere meditative attainment. "Cessation" (nirodha) is Nibbana see sutta 51 (Iti 3.2):
By fully understand the form element,
Without getting stuck in the formless,
They are released into cessation
And leave Death far behind them.
    Note: The point is not to settle in "form" or in the "formless", which are blissful, and peaceful states attained during meditation, but to realise that they are still subject to impermanence and death. Only in Nibbana is perfect freedom to be found. The attainment of jhana can be such a profound experience that it may easily be mistaken for the ultimate goal. In fact, entire religions and theologies have been founded upon and reinforced by such experiences.

[35] Sabbasankarasamatha: the cessation of all conditioned things, of the whole of conditioned existence; this is Nibbana, the unconditioned state.

[36] Teh second verse also appears in Sutta 53 (Iti 3.4)
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:43 am

Iti 3.23 Escape
Translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-072

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these three properties for escape. Which three? This is the escape from sensuality: renunciation.[1] This is the escape from form: formlessness. And as for whatever has come into being, is fabricated & dependently co-arisen, the escape from that is cessation. These are the three properties for escape."

    Knowing the escape from sensuality,
    & the overcoming of forms
    — ardent
    always —
    touching the stilling
    of all fabrications:
    he is a monk
    who's seen rightly.

    From that he is there set free.
    A master of direct knowing,
    at peace,
    he is a sage
    gone beyond bonds.

Note

1. Renunciation here means the first level of jhana, which is attained when one is secluded from sensual passion and unskillful mental qualities. On formlessness and cessation, see the note to §51:
    The property of form corresponds to the experience of the form of the body as present in the first four levels of jhana (see Glossary). The property of formlessness corresponds to the formless experiences based on the fourth level of jhana: the dimension of the infinitude of space, the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the dimension of nothingness, and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. The property of cessation is the experience of the total cessation of stress.
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:10 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Iti 3.23 Escape
Translated by John Ireland[/b]

Having known the escape from sensual desires
And the overcoming of forms,
One whose energy is always ardent
Reaches the stilling of all formations. [35]

[35] Sabbasankarasamatha: the cessation of all conditioned things, of the whole of conditioned existence; this is Nibbana, the unconditioned state.



So it's describing a progression through the rupa and arupa jhanas, culminating in Nibbana?

But I'm still not clear what is meant by the cessation of all conditioned things? Does it really mean the cessation of conditioned experience?
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:23 pm

Maybe it's better to say "appeasing sankharas" than to say "stilling..." or "ending..." them.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:01 pm

Would you care to elaborate, Dave? I'm not sure what "appease" would imply in this context.

:anjali:
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:12 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Would you care to elaborate, Dave? I'm not sure what "appease" would imply in this context.

:anjali:
Mike


Nirodha can be taken to mean cessation, but that there are sankhara for an arahant means that sankhara cannot be utterly ceased as a general rule - same with vinnana, it isn't utterly ceased so much as... well, nirodha-d, which I want to call "appeased" in order to highlight the paired facts of A. sankhara and such being present for an arahant while B. not being rooted in greed, hate, or delusion.

They are not clung to, they do not find an opening, they are appeased. I hope to avoid confusion e.g. "if sankhara or vinnana have ceased, does that mean the arahant experiences fewer aggregates in their day-to-day living compared to a puthujjana?" I say that they haven't ceased in this way, they have been appeased such that the crummy ones that lead on to future becoming no longer arise, and the rest will ride out the remainder of the aggregate inertia (the arahant's lifespan).

In the poem here the term is samatha, which feels synonymous to me in this context. So I wanted to collect this semantic realm together with a term that didn't lend itself to ideation about "how can there be no sankhara for an arahant who tells me they, too, see that draft cow over there?" and so forth.

---

With respect to sensual desires, form, and sankhara in this source, I notice that MN 13 has sensual desire, form, and feeling. There, the feeling category is identified with the jhanas; and, since appeasing sankhara forms the instructions for anapanasati, and this leads to jhana, I see a number of interrelated strands here.

(And a potential problem:

Iti 3.23: "the escape from form, that is, the formless..."

MN 13: "And what, bhikkhus, is the escape in the case of material form? It is the removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for material form. This is the escape in the case of material form.")
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:31 am

daverupa wrote:They are not clung to, they do not find an opening, they are appeased. I hope to avoid confusion e.g. "if sankhara or vinnana have ceased, does that mean the arahant experiences fewer aggregates in their day-to-day living compared to a puthujjana?" I say that they haven't ceased in this way, they have been appeased such that the crummy ones that lead on to future becoming no longer arise, and the rest will ride out the remainder of the aggregate inertia (the arahant's lifespan).


Another option is that "sankhara" in this context just refers to the sankhara aggregate, not to the aggregates as a whole - so it's just the sankhara aggregate which is "stilled". Would that work?
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby daverupa » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:48 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:They are not clung to, they do not find an opening, they are appeased. I hope to avoid confusion e.g. "if sankhara or vinnana have ceased, does that mean the arahant experiences fewer aggregates in their day-to-day living compared to a puthujjana?" I say that they haven't ceased in this way, they have been appeased such that the crummy ones that lead on to future becoming no longer arise, and the rest will ride out the remainder of the aggregate inertia (the arahant's lifespan).


Another option is that "sankhara" in this context just refers to the sankhara aggregate, not to the aggregates as a whole - so it's just the sankhara aggregate which is "stilled". Would that work?


Whatever internal or external sankhara, that is just sankhara - so, the aggregate is what I had in mind.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:57 am

daverupa wrote:In the poem here the term is samatha, which feels synonymous to me in this context. So I wanted to collect this semantic realm together with a term that didn't lend itself to ideation about "how can there be no sankhara for an arahant who tells me they, too, see that draft cow over there?" and so forth.


So are you suggesting that the "samatha" in "sabbasankarasamatha" indicates that the formations are calmed or tranquillised, rather than ceasing? Presumably that would result from the cessation of craving and aversion? I thought of the Fire Sermon in this regard.
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Re: Iti 3.23 Escape

Postby daverupa » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:58 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:In the poem here the term is samatha, which feels synonymous to me in this context. So I wanted to collect this semantic realm together with a term that didn't lend itself to ideation about "how can there be no sankhara for an arahant who tells me they, too, see that draft cow over there?" and so forth.


So are you suggesting that the "samatha" in "sabbasankarasamatha" indicates that the formations are calmed or tranquillised, rather than ceasing? Presumably that would result from the cessation of craving and aversion? I thought of the Fire Sermon in this regard.


Basically. If sankhara were literally ceased, there could be no speech-sankhara and no arahant could ever have given instruction.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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