buddhist views

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
befriend
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buddhist views

Postby befriend » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:06 pm

is it true we have non attachment to Buddhist views? meaning we can believe in them 99% but not 100% because we have not had first hand experience with them?

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Sam Vara
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Re: buddhist views

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:07 pm

befriend wrote:is it true we have non attachment to Buddhist views? meaning we can believe in them 99% but not 100% because we have not had first hand experience with them?

I think the answer to this depends on what you mean by "first hand experience". Of course, you can experience views by trying them out in everyday life; reflecting on whether they make sense, feel right, and are an aid to your development. But do you incontrovertibly know them to be true, or not?
The Buddha made an important distinction between Saccanubodha, or awakening to truth; and Saccanurakkhana, which means "protection of the truth". The former is described like this:
When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

It is worth noting that even this is described as "awakening to the truth", and that beyond this there is the final "attaining the truth". But with Saccanubodha, I guess we are talking about your "100%".
Prior to this, the practitioner must be careful to recognise that their views are based on faith, preference, tradition, reason, or reflective acceptance.
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

"If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

The views are recognised as such, rather than being knowledge. This is Saccanurakkhana. Of course, we can get into all sorts of difficulties by attaching unwisely to views (arguing with others in an unskillful way, for example). But if we are honest with ourselves, the above distinction (which is from the Canki Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.095x.than.html) helps us to see our views (which are probably the most important aspect of the practice) in the correct way.

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Re: buddhist views

Postby clw_uk » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:08 pm

befriend wrote:is it true we have non attachment to Buddhist views? meaning we can believe in them 99% but not 100% because we have not had first hand experience with them?



Non-attachment to buddhist views means using the four noble truths to examine existence, and so free oneself from dukkha and the concept of "I am". Then there are no views, just the way it is.
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: buddhist views

Postby befriend » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:00 pm

why are we taught to not believe Buddhist views completely?

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Re: buddhist views

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:11 pm

befriend wrote:why are we taught to not believe Buddhist views completely?



Because they are tools to induce detachment, not attachment


For example saying I believe in change means nothing in Buddhism

Using the concept as a point of reference to let go though means something in Buddhism


The teachings are a raft to use and cross over, once you have let go of everything, you let go of the tools as well (the views)
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: buddhist views

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:14 pm

For example


"A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless.

Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides.

He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: buddhist views

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:18 pm

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views.
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: buddhist views

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:22 pm

The point is to use the teachings to let go, then you let go of the teachings


So it collapses into itself, like a fire that burns up all craving then, in the final act, consumes itself and is put out (Nibbana meaning extinguished)
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: buddhist views

Postby befriend » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:34 pm

could someone please define the term attachment?

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Re: buddhist views

Postby nibbuti » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:27 pm

befriend wrote:could someone please define the term attachment?


"And what is clinging, what is the origin of clinging, what is the cessation of clinging, what is the way leading to the cessation of clinging? There are these four kinds of clinging:


clinging to sensual pleasures :toast:

clinging to views :guns:
clinging to rituals and observances :rules:

clinging to a doctrine of self :strawman:


With the arising of craving :pig: there is the arising of clinging. With the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging. The way leading to the cessation of clinging is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html

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Re: buddhist views

Postby befriend » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:14 am

is believing a view completely, 100% mean you are attached to it?

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Re: buddhist views

Postby seeker242 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:47 am

"Faith in Buddhism" article on wikipedia gives a pretty good explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Buddhism

Another good article here. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ening.html

:namaste:

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Re: buddhist views

Postby befriend » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:25 pm

thank you, but im just curious if these two terms mean the same thing. complete belief, where the belief is held in the mind as total truth, and being attached to a belief. its more of a language question than a question on faith.

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Re: buddhist views

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:57 am

befriend wrote:thank you, but im just curious if these two terms mean the same thing. complete belief, where the belief is held in the mind as total truth, and being attached to a belief. its more of a language question than a question on faith.



Its not about having "total truth" as such, its about using a view to be detached
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan


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