Women cannot become Buddhas?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
plwk
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Re: Women cannot become Buddhas?

Post by plwk »

Naturally zamotcr. And next thing you'll be expecting is the re-alignment of the 32 Great Marks/Signs of a woman instead of a man...
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tiltbillings
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Re: Women cannot become Buddhas?

Post by tiltbillings »

plwk wrote:Naturally zamotcr. And next thing you'll be expecting is the re-alignment of the 32 Great Marks/Signs of a woman instead of a man...
Given how utterly strange those are for a man, what would they be for a woman? Probably some something on the line of a Barbie Doll.

The 32 marks and the Buddha needing to be a man are reflections of culture. These things were very likely part of the Indian milieu, taken up by the Buddhists.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: Women cannot become Buddhas?

Post by Aloka »

tiltbillings wrote: The 32 marks and the Buddha needing to be a man are reflections of culture. These things were very likely part of the Indian milieu, taken up by the Buddhists.
I remember Ajahn Sujato writing "On the 32 marks" in his blog a couple of years ago:

There is plenty of incidental detail in the Suttas and Vinaya that show that the Buddha was normal in appearance, so any freakish or supernatural interpretation of the marks must be wrong. Leaving a few of the bizarre elements aside, most of the marks are straightforward signs of physical beauty: black hair, white teeth, gold skin, and the like.

The Suttas themselves attribute the marks to ancient Brahmanical texts, although strangely enough they are not found in any extant Brahmanical works.

There is some suggestion that they may be Babylonian in origin: one of the early texts that features them (Parayanavagga) speaks of a Brahman called ‘Bavari’, which is just the Pali spelling of ‘Babylonian’; marks and omens of all kinds are rampant in Babylon and related cultures. In addition, the 32 marks are closely connected with the idea that the Buddha is a ‘Great man’, who has to choose between spiritual and royal dominion. This choice is first expressed in the myth of Gilgamesh, thousands of years before the Buddha, the most famous myth throughout the Babylonian region.

It is quite normal to have a child inspected for various auspicious marks, and so on, and so there is little reason to doubt that this happened to Siddhattha. It is also normal, indeed, essential, for the hero to fulfill ancient prophecies. While we can’t say what marks the Buddha actually had, we can be sure that if he did not fulfill an ancient prophecy, one would have been invented for him.

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/on-the-32-marks/

:anjali:
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manas
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Re: Women cannot become Buddhas?

Post by manas »

Dhammanando wrote:
manas wrote:I wonder what the official, traditional explanation is, as to why a human being with a female body, could not also discover the Four Noble Truths on their own after much striving over many lifetimes, as the Buddha did.
It’s part and parcel of the general doctrine that in their final life bodhisattas will be reborn in circumstances that permit them to have the optimal impact upon devas and men.[1] For example, it is said that they will be reborn in whatever happens to be reckoned as the highest social class at that time; the place of their birth will be a cultured and not a barbarous one; they will be physically attractive, possessed of a good voice, etc. etc.

The texts don’t spell out precisely why it would be better for them to be men rather than women, but it's not hard to guess. As far as we know, all human societies are patriarchal, always have been, and most probably always will be.[2] So, if you’re intent on making a really big splash in the world, other things being equal, possession of a male body will stand you in better stead than possession of a female one.


_______
Notes ....
Thanks Bhante, your answer clarified my understanding of this issue.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Women cannot become Buddhas?

Post by Dhammanando »

zamotcr wrote:Venerable Dhammanando, so, if we make the hypothetical assumption that in a long future, the dominant society is matriarchal, we could expect a female Buddha?
In your hypothetical future it would presumably depend on which of the two regularities (dhammatā) were the dominant one: that Buddhas are always born in the optimal state for carrying out their task or that they are never female. If the former is dominant then we'll get Buddhas who are female but nonetheless optimal; if the latter then the Buddhas will be male but sub-optimal.
:shrug:
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Virgo
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Re: Women cannot become Buddhas?

Post by Virgo »

It's not really a big deal either way is it? It is not like Buddhas are sexist and refuse to be women! (not that it is a choice either way). It's just that if the society is patriarchal - which almost all are - then the Buddha-to-be will be born with a male body, since that is what will give him the most power and influence. Likewise, whatever the highest caste is, he is born in ...
:anjali: What is important is the message, the unique teachings that a Buddha shares.
Kevin
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