Commitment to a narrative of liberation

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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:28 am

mikenz66 wrote:...My question is partly about whether one should just pick a particular narrative and stick to it, or attempt to identify the "best" narrative. I sometimes feel I might make more progress if I quit worrying about different possibilities and got on with the practice I learned when I got started a few years ago. But it's hard to resist the intellectual interest of the various modern developments...

:anjali:
Mike

I feel, rightly or wrongly, that my own "attempt to identify the 'best' narrative" is actually a legitimate way of engaging with the dhamma and one comes easily to a product of the Western intellectual/academic tradition (e.g. me :embarassed: )
But sometimes I think that's not the best way to go but just the easiest way - in fact that my practice, like the rest of my life, is too much "head" and not enough "hands" and "heart".

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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby equilibrium » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:23 pm

daverupa wrote:Are we correct to say that the conditions for right view are "another's narrative" and appropriate attention?

This is an excellent and sharp observation!
Your use of the words "appropriate attention" is rather interesting and it can only be useful if we understand why.

For anything to exist, it must depend on something else.....so for right view to exist, it must depend on a narrative. Would this not be the teachings of the Buddha itself? Now, what is interesting is this:
As a narrative, it cannot be true hence "right view" which depends on it cannot be true either!.....technically speaking, right view isn't true because we really don't see right view. How can someone see right view when one is under delusion?.....hence one is merely being guided as your suggestion of appropriate attention. We can also use this delusion to our advantage by flipping it around meaning one is aware and mindful that ones opinions are not 100% true and not to depend on it until after liberation. This is why any self-views should be removed so we don't entangle within our own wrong views!

Views are expressions and depends on something else.....yet there are no views in Buddhism.....when one goes beyond views, it is that of wisdom as there are no views!.....as views comes from that of the deluded self!

Suppose the most important point in this thread is the word "true" under the OP within MN95 and how this word is understood in relation to "anything else is worthless".

(Don't react to this one): What would you say if someone mentioned the teaching isn't true?.....Do we understand what this really means?
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby SDC » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:54 pm

Mr Man wrote:I think the narrative remains dynamic and unfolds. Commitment is to this dynamic narrative of awakening rather than to a convention. This doesn't preclude the convention though.


ancientbuddhism wrote:For myself, the liberation narrative is little more than a necessary part of the hagiographical picture. Rather, it is easier for me to assimilate the Tathāgata’s realisation through his instructions on contemplative praxis and analysis, and finding these confirmed in that work. In other words, I accept the former but seek through the latter.


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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:20 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:For myself, the liberation narrative is little more than a necessary part of the hagiographical picture. Rather, it is easier for me to assimilate the Tathāgata’s realisation through his instructions on contemplative praxis and analysis, and finding these confirmed in that work. In other words, I accept the former but seek through the latter.

You make some interesting points here.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post, but by liberation narrative in the context of this thread I meant the descriptions of how to work towards liberation in the suttas, expositions of the classical understanding of awakening in the Visuddhimagga, and so on. I.e. the instructions are the liberation narrative.

:anjali:
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:29 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:For myself, the liberation narrative is little more than a necessary part of the hagiographical picture. Rather, it is easier for me to assimilate the Tathāgata’s realisation through his instructions on contemplative praxis and analysis, and finding these confirmed in that work. In other words, I accept the former but seek through the latter.

You make some interesting points here.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post, but by liberation narrative in the context of this thread I meant the descriptions of how to work towards liberation in the suttas, expositions of the classical understanding of awakening in the Visuddhimagga, and so on. I.e. the instructions are the liberation narrative.


We are probably discussing the same thing. It’s just that my first thought of a ‘story of awakening’, or a ‘narrative of liberation’ – at least with reference to early Buddhism – first speaks of the original; of the Tathāgata and anthems of the Arahant, as this is the aiming point. Whereas the teachings are instructive on how to aim.

If Malcolm is referring to an ‘internal’, or as you mentioned ‘instructions’, to that aim of liberation as narrative, then it this latter that fits with a living practice for me as I mentioned earlier.
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:24 pm

Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:liberation narrative in the context of this thread I meant the descriptions of how to work towards liberation in the suttas, expositions of the classical understanding of awakening in the Visuddhimagga, and so on. I.e. the instructions are the liberation narrative.

To me, a narrative implies a journey over time, whereas to me the "instructions" are the timeless/abstracted tools that may assist on that journey.

Therefore, I would see perceive a "liberation narrative" as the personal realisations, experiences, wisdom and joy that flowers over time - more Ther(a/i)gatha and less Visuddhimagga. Yet, to use your example of the Visuddhimagga, if that were to be converted to a generic liberation narrative comprising of 16 vipassana-nanas then I have zero commitment to that at all... as that does not parallel my personal journey, nor the narratives of the Buddha and the arahants of the Sutta Pitaka with which I feel brotherhood.

So to answer your question from a personal perspective, it's not "commitment to", but "fellowship with" that is the defining feature. Our own journey (personal narrative) will change and evolve over time, and is not static, so to "commit to" one person's narrative of liberation is to deny (and therefore likely restrict) the dynamic nature your own personal development.

We do not become liberated by wishing to tie ourselves to something and manifesting as clones - that is bhava.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby SarathW » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:07 am

I think now I started to follow the OP.
For me the theory and practice are both very important. I confirm the theory by my practice.
Until such time I keep my mind open to what I learnt in theory.
Sometimes I check whether my experience through practice is supported by the theories.
I gather my theory not only from Buddhism but also from other religions and science too.
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:43 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:To me, a narrative implies a journey over time, whereas to me the "instructions" are the timeless/abstracted tools that may assist on that journey.

Sure, but the Suttas, Visuddhimagga, etc, give some "maps" for the journey. Those are narratives that various practitioners buy into (or not).
retrofuturist wrote:Therefore, I would see perceive a "liberation narrative" as the personal realisations, experiences, wisdom and joy that flowers over time - more Ther(a/i)gatha and less Visuddhimagga. Yet, to use your example of the Visuddhimagga, if that were to be converted to a generic liberation narrative comprising of 16 vipassana-nanas then I have zero commitment to that at all... as that does not parallel my personal journey, nor the narratives of the Buddha and the arahants of the Sutta Pitaka with which I feel brotherhood.

Sure. The maps in the suttas have much less detail [but see, for example, SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta and the discussion here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11701&p=178693&hilit=Upanisa#p177835]. Clearly some feel an affinity for the ancient and modern practitioners and teachers who used their (and others) experience of implementing the Dhamma to produce more detailed maps. Some don't.

But does the particular narrative (map, approach, etc) matter? Tilt's question is right to the point:
tiltbillings wrote:Does the traditional Burmese practitioner, who believes the Pali Canon [and commentaries - Mike] is literally true, fare any differently from the Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances, in terms of actual practice and the results thereof?


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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:00 am

Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:But does the particular narrative (map, approach, etc) matter? Tilt's question is right to the point:
tiltbillings wrote:Does the traditional Burmese practitioner, who believes the Pali Canon [and commentaries - Mike] is literally true, fare any differently from the Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances, in terms of actual practice and the results thereof?

I think everyone fares differently, according to their deeds (broadly speaking, to include all actions of mind and body). "Traditional Burmese practitioner" and "Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances" are merely two more narratives, to either subscribe to, or feel no resonance, as the case may be.

mikenz66 wrote:Clearly some feel an affinity for the ancient and modern practitioners and teachers who used their (and others) experience of implementing the Dhamma to produce more detailed maps. Some don't.

It probably depends on the detail of these maps and its applicability to one's journey. As a general rule, I actually find it more useful when people share their insights rather than the detailed methods they applied in getting to that insight... I think this is because of an intuitive awareness that everyone's life, journey and mode of experience is different, and that I work best when I experientially validate insights in my own way. Other people will share their insights with me and they will resonate with some pre-existing known truth and help to trigger further personal exploration. This internal approach is in stark contrast to "maps" requiring prescriptivity and adherence to some delineated and restrictive external "system".

Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:But does the particular narrative (map, approach, etc) matter? Tilt's question is right to the point:
tiltbillings wrote:Does the traditional Burmese practitioner, who believes the Pali Canon [and commentaries - Mike] is literally true, fare any differently from the Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances, in terms of actual practice and the results thereof?

I think everyone fares differently, according to their deeds (broadly speaking, to include all actions of mind and body). "Traditional Burmese practitioner" and "Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances" are merely two more narratives, to either subscribe to, or feel no resonance, as the case may be.

The interesting question is whether they lead to the same insights/liberation or not.
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Clearly some feel an affinity for the ancient and modern practitioners and teachers who used their (and others) experience of implementing the Dhamma to produce more detailed maps. Some don't.

It probably depends on the detail of these maps and its applicability to one's journey. As a general rule, I actually find it more useful when people share their insights rather than the detailed methods they applied in getting to that insight...

That's certainly true, though I find that in many discussion here there is a focus on what's in a sutta or whatever, to the exclusion of what people actually think/feel/experienced. How they made use of the suttas or other material. I think that it's probably inevitable --- online sharing of detailed experiences isn't something I'm particularly comfortable with.
retrofuturist wrote:I think this is because of an intuitive awareness that everyone's life, journey and mode of experience is different, and that I work best when I experientially validate insights in my own way. Other people will share their insights with me and they will resonate with some pre-existing known truth and help to trigger further personal exploration. This internal approach is in stark contrast to "maps" requiring prescriptivity and adherence to some delineated and restrictive external "system".

I've not seen a lot of prescriptiveness in my off-line experience. Most teachers I've encountered have a "try this and see how it works" approach that is quite fluid.
retrofuturist wrote:Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.

I don't think I've come across people with that particular problem.

:anjali:
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:45 am

Greetings,

retrofuturist wrote:Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.

mikenz66 wrote:I don't think I've come across people with that particular problem.

I have. Even when the system or narrative is as high level as Buddhism (or "being Buddhist") itself, it can be an issue - people feel compelled to adhere to rites and rituals (broadly defined) which do not resonate.

An example I'm sure you're familiar with (at least online) is when people decide to change Buddhist traditions. This is essentially renouncing one narrative and set of instructions in favour of another.

I'm guessing this is partly why Ajahn Chah said, "Don't be an arahant, don't be a bodhisattva, don't be anything at all — if you are anything at all you will suffer.”

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:32 am

mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.

I don't think I've come across people with that particular problem.
I would say we have seen a fair amount of that expressed here over the years rather graphically by a few of the anti-Burmese vipassana folks, as in a fairly long fruitless involvement with Burmese vipassana before moving onto something that supposedly is better.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby rohana » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:It probably depends on the detail of these maps and its applicability to one's journey. As a general rule, I actually find it more useful when people share their insights rather than the detailed methods they applied in getting to that insight... I think this is because of an intuitive awareness that everyone's life, journey and mode of experience is different, and that I work best when I experientially validate insights in my own way.

Retro, Mike,

Perhaps you guys can expand on this a little bit. For example, a Hindu tantrika, and a Vajrayāna practitioner both may talk about a non-dual experience is very similar terms. Then the Hindu might say that both herself and the Vajrayāna practitioner are having the same experience (based on her 'map' which calls this experience the supreme goal), while the Vajrayānika might disagree. And another person(say, a Theravada practitioner) might say they're both experiencing a formless attainment, which is not the supreme goal. So insights, it seems to me, is harder to describe than maps, so where does that leave us?

To take a more concrete example, consider the 'anidassana viññāṇa'. Ven. Ñāṇānanda claims it to be a supra-mundane experience available to an Arahant, which ceases with parinibbāna. Ajahn Amaro seems to claim it is the same as the Dzogchen rigpa. Ven. Thanissaro describes it as a supra-mundane consciousness, but leaves open the possibility of its continuation after parinibbāna. There are both similarities and differences in the way the three venerables describe and explain this insight.

And here's Joseph Goldstein on it, which may be relevant to this thread:
    Two major things happened to me at that retreat. One is that I really struggled with the differences between vipassana and dzogchen. Because even though the dzogchen teachings, just like vipassana, felt resonant with my experience, it was saying quite different things about the nature of awareness and the mind.
    What was the difference?
    In the Burmese system, liberation involves transcending awareness. In dzogchen, liberation is recognizing that the nature of mind is awareness itself. These are two quite different ways of expressing things. I spent a month of that retreat trying to figure it out, trying to decide who was "right." I finally came to realize that I could understand both systems as skillful means rather than as statements of absolute truth.
    Well, that was a huge relief. But, of course, then the question arises, "Well, skillful means for what?" What I've come to understand more deeply over the years-and what I think is supported by the teachings in all of the Buddhist traditions-is that the liberated mind is the mind that does not cling to anything. In one discourse the Buddha said, "Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as I or mine. Whoever has realized this has realized all the teachings."
    All the different methods and metaphysical systems can be seen as skillful means to accomplish the mind of no-clinging. This understanding really freed me from attachments to metaphysical models that I didn't even know I'd had. I'd been so completely immersed in the model of the Burmese teachings that when I came into contact with a different model, it became a huge conflict. I had just assumed that the particular way we speak of things was the truth, forgetting that the words were just skillful means for experiencing the mind that doesn't cling to anything. That's where the freedom is.

    An Interview with Joseph Goldstein
As Ajahn Chah said, we "can't know the taste of the fruit without eating it". So ultimately the goal of the Dhamma to be experienced. But then again, we don't go around eating every fruit we see; if it looks rotten or unripe from the outside, we avoid it and pick one that looks edible. Similarly, there's simply no way to experience all the goals promised by Vedanta, Taoism, Sufism, etc etc. So initially one has to make a decision based on the outer appearance and stick with it, at least to some extent. This is where approaches such as text-critical ones, and an understanding of history important. You don't need to tie yourself into knots trying to resolve what the Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra says about skillful means with the ethical guidelines put forth in the Pāli Suttas if you understand the historical background.


Some replies are split out here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18669&p=262071#p262071
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:44 am

Thanks for the Goldstein quote Rohana,

That's the sort of thing that I had in mind. I liked this observation:
Goldstein wrote: I'd been so completely immersed in the model of the Burmese teachings that when I came into contact with a different model, it became a huge conflict.

I used to have that sort of reaction when attending teachings from secular or Zen teachers, after being immersed mostly in Theravada. And it tended to make me dismiss some of the really good points that they were making. I'd sit there arguing (internally) about something they mentioned in passing (a "true self" or some other concept that doesn't fit well with a Theravada model) and in the process I'd miss the really good points they were trying to make.

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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:30 am

Greetings Rohana,

rohana wrote:Perhaps you guys can expand on this a little bit.

Firstly, I'll say I liked the Goldstein quote. That was good. :thumbsup:

Secondly, in relation to "insights", which is the part of my post that you specifically quoted, some of what you've called out by way of examples are what I would call "experiences", rather than "insights". To me, 'anidassana viññāṇa' isn't an insight per se.

I realise that some people might equate certain experiences and insights as synonymous, but for myself at least, I don't. I see "insights" as something which someone should be able to articulate and communicate to someone else, just like the Buddha did via his teachings - thus, they are exoteric, rather than esoteric. What did you learn from the experience? Even insights into the nature of nibbana can be explained by way of inference.

Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:04 am

Personally, i have always liked Lin Chi's comment on narrative:

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!
If you meet the patriarchs or the arhats on your way, kill them too...
Bodhidharma was an old bearded barbarian...
Nirvana and Bodhi are dead stumps to tie your donkey to.
The sacred teachings are only lists of ghosts, sheets of paper fit for wiping the pus from your boils.
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:33 am

Some discussion that seemed to be veering off topic is split out here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18669&p=262071#p262071

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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby kirk5a » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:21 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.

I think if it's possible to change your mind about it, it's not Dhamma-insight.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:05 pm

Greetings Kirk,

kirk5a wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.

I think if it's possible to change your mind about it, it's not Dhamma-insight.

OK - is that simply appending to the above, or do you think I'm suggesting otherwise?

I will say however that until one is an arahant, simply having wisdom does not mean that one automatically applies it in subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The dynamic is more akin to what it outlined in MN 117...

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta wrote:"One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong action & for entering into right action: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right action.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby kirk5a » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,

kirk5a wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.

I think if it's possible to change your mind about it, it's not Dhamma-insight.

OK - is that simply appending to the above, or do you think I'm suggesting otherwise?

Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the language you used suggested to me insight as views, ideas, outlooks, conclusions, lines of reasoning, worldviews... and as such, unreliable, and not truly eliminating doubt. I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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