Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:I am having a difficult time following the discussion because it seems that sometimes "narrative" refers to an individuals internal thought representation and it seems that sometimes "narrative" refers to some external text or exposition. It seems clear to me that there is a big difference between these two.
Each "narrative" informs the other.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

chownah wrote:I am having a difficult time following the discussion because it seems that sometimes "narrative" refers to an individuals internal thought representation and it seems that sometimes "narrative" refers to some external text or exposition.
I don't see a clear distinction. As far as I can see, everyone picks particular external texts, exposition, traditions, teachers, etc, to pay most attention to. Those become the basis for their internal narrative. Those internal narratives can, of course, differ even for people who follow the same sources, but those sources can be used to give a general classification.

My question is partly about whether one should just pick a particular narrative and stick to it, or attempt to identify the "best" narrative. I sometimes feel I might make more progress if I quit worrying about different possibilities and got on with the practice I learned when I got started a few years ago. But it's hard to resist the intellectual interest of the various modern developments...

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote: I sometimes feel I might make more progress if I quit worrying about different possibilities and got on with the practice I learned when I got started a few years ago. But it's hard to resist the intellectual interest of the various modern developments...
This may very be something that will resolve itself with age and experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:
chownah wrote:I am having a difficult time following the discussion because it seems that sometimes "narrative" refers to an individuals internal thought representation and it seems that sometimes "narrative" refers to some external text or exposition.
I don't see a clear distinction. As far as I can see, everyone picks particular external texts, exposition, traditions, teachers, etc, to pay most attention to. Those become the basis for their internal narrative. Those internal narratives can, of course, differ even for people who follow the same sources, but those sources can be used to give a general classification.
Maybe that is putting the cart before the horse. Isn't it a rudimentary "narrative of liberation" that takes us to the texts etc?
mikenz66 wrote: My question is partly about whether one should just pick a particular narrative and stick to it, or attempt to identify the "best" narrative. I sometimes feel I might make more progress if I quit worrying about different possibilities and got on with the practice I learned when I got started a few years ago. But it's hard to resist the intellectual interest of the various modern developments...
I think the narrative remains dynamic and unfolds. Commitment is to this dynamic narrative of awakening rather than to a convention. This doesn't preclude the convention though.
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Malcolm’s statement “And that is why there is no closed Canon in Buddhism, why there never can be.” is an amusing take on the raft simile. But I have to remember that this comes from a mahāyāna forum.

In Buddhist cultures that are heavily invested in tradition, the ‘narrative of liberation’ is painted on the temple walls. And acceptance of this tradition may be the basis for what makes one a ‘Buddhist’, indeed for some it is all they have. But what for some may come off as comparisons of East & West perspectives is the question – is this the same for the adherent motivated by the empirical results of contemplative work?

For myself, the liberation narrative is little more than a necessary part of the hagiographical picture. Rather, it is easier for me to assimilate the Tathāgata’s realisation through his instructions on contemplative praxis and analysis, and finding these confirmed in that work. In other words, I accept the former but seek through the latter.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

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Kim OHara
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by Kim OHara »

mikenz66 wrote:...My question is partly about whether one should just pick a particular narrative and stick to it, or attempt to identify the "best" narrative. I sometimes feel I might make more progress if I quit worrying about different possibilities and got on with the practice I learned when I got started a few years ago. But it's hard to resist the intellectual interest of the various modern developments...

:anjali:
Mike
I feel, rightly or wrongly, that my own "attempt to identify the 'best' narrative" is actually a legitimate way of engaging with the dhamma and one comes easily to a product of the Western intellectual/academic tradition (e.g. me :embarassed: )
But sometimes I think that's not the best way to go but just the easiest way - in fact that my practice, like the rest of my life, is too much "head" and not enough "hands" and "heart".

:juggling:
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equilibrium
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by equilibrium »

daverupa wrote:Are we correct to say that the conditions for right view are "another's narrative" and appropriate attention?
This is an excellent and sharp observation!
Your use of the words "appropriate attention" is rather interesting and it can only be useful if we understand why.

For anything to exist, it must depend on something else.....so for right view to exist, it must depend on a narrative. Would this not be the teachings of the Buddha itself? Now, what is interesting is this:
As a narrative, it cannot be true hence "right view" which depends on it cannot be true either!.....technically speaking, right view isn't true because we really don't see right view. How can someone see right view when one is under delusion?.....hence one is merely being guided as your suggestion of appropriate attention. We can also use this delusion to our advantage by flipping it around meaning one is aware and mindful that ones opinions are not 100% true and not to depend on it until after liberation. This is why any self-views should be removed so we don't entangle within our own wrong views!

Views are expressions and depends on something else.....yet there are no views in Buddhism.....when one goes beyond views, it is that of wisdom as there are no views!.....as views comes from that of the deluded self!

Suppose the most important point in this thread is the word "true" under the OP within MN95 and how this word is understood in relation to "anything else is worthless".

(Don't react to this one): What would you say if someone mentioned the teaching isn't true?.....Do we understand what this really means?
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by SDC »

Mr Man wrote:I think the narrative remains dynamic and unfolds. Commitment is to this dynamic narrative of awakening rather than to a convention. This doesn't preclude the convention though.
ancientbuddhism wrote:For myself, the liberation narrative is little more than a necessary part of the hagiographical picture. Rather, it is easier for me to assimilate the Tathāgata’s realisation through his instructions on contemplative praxis and analysis, and finding these confirmed in that work. In other words, I accept the former but seek through the latter.
Great posts!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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mikenz66
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

ancientbuddhism wrote:For myself, the liberation narrative is little more than a necessary part of the hagiographical picture. Rather, it is easier for me to assimilate the Tathāgata’s realisation through his instructions on contemplative praxis and analysis, and finding these confirmed in that work. In other words, I accept the former but seek through the latter.
You make some interesting points here.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post, but by liberation narrative in the context of this thread I meant the descriptions of how to work towards liberation in the suttas, expositions of the classical understanding of awakening in the Visuddhimagga, and so on. I.e. the instructions are the liberation narrative.

:anjali:
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by ancientbuddhism »

mikenz66 wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:For myself, the liberation narrative is little more than a necessary part of the hagiographical picture. Rather, it is easier for me to assimilate the Tathāgata’s realisation through his instructions on contemplative praxis and analysis, and finding these confirmed in that work. In other words, I accept the former but seek through the latter.
You make some interesting points here.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post, but by liberation narrative in the context of this thread I meant the descriptions of how to work towards liberation in the suttas, expositions of the classical understanding of awakening in the Visuddhimagga, and so on. I.e. the instructions are the liberation narrative.
We are probably discussing the same thing. It’s just that my first thought of a ‘story of awakening’, or a ‘narrative of liberation’ – at least with reference to early Buddhism – first speaks of the original; of the Tathāgata and anthems of the Arahant, as this is the aiming point. Whereas the teachings are instructive on how to aim.

If Malcolm is referring to an ‘internal’, or as you mentioned ‘instructions’, to that aim of liberation as narrative, then it this latter that fits with a living practice for me as I mentioned earlier.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:liberation narrative in the context of this thread I meant the descriptions of how to work towards liberation in the suttas, expositions of the classical understanding of awakening in the Visuddhimagga, and so on. I.e. the instructions are the liberation narrative.
To me, a narrative implies a journey over time, whereas to me the "instructions" are the timeless/abstracted tools that may assist on that journey.

Therefore, I would see perceive a "liberation narrative" as the personal realisations, experiences, wisdom and joy that flowers over time - more Ther(a/i)gatha and less Visuddhimagga. Yet, to use your example of the Visuddhimagga, if that were to be converted to a generic liberation narrative comprising of 16 vipassana-nanas then I have zero commitment to that at all... as that does not parallel my personal journey, nor the narratives of the Buddha and the arahants of the Sutta Pitaka with which I feel brotherhood.

So to answer your question from a personal perspective, it's not "commitment to", but "fellowship with" that is the defining feature. Our own journey (personal narrative) will change and evolve over time, and is not static, so to "commit to" one person's narrative of liberation is to deny (and therefore likely restrict) the dynamic nature your own personal development.

We do not become liberated by wishing to tie ourselves to something and manifesting as clones - that is bhava.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by SarathW »

I think now I started to follow the OP.
For me the theory and practice are both very important. I confirm the theory by my practice.
Until such time I keep my mind open to what I learnt in theory.
Sometimes I check whether my experience through practice is supported by the theories.
I gather my theory not only from Buddhism but also from other religions and science too.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

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Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: To me, a narrative implies a journey over time, whereas to me the "instructions" are the timeless/abstracted tools that may assist on that journey.
Sure, but the Suttas, Visuddhimagga, etc, give some "maps" for the journey. Those are narratives that various practitioners buy into (or not).
retrofuturist wrote: Therefore, I would see perceive a "liberation narrative" as the personal realisations, experiences, wisdom and joy that flowers over time - more Ther(a/i)gatha and less Visuddhimagga. Yet, to use your example of the Visuddhimagga, if that were to be converted to a generic liberation narrative comprising of 16 vipassana-nanas then I have zero commitment to that at all... as that does not parallel my personal journey, nor the narratives of the Buddha and the arahants of the Sutta Pitaka with which I feel brotherhood.
Sure. The maps in the suttas have much less detail [but see, for example, SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta and the discussion here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... sa#p177835]. Clearly some feel an affinity for the ancient and modern practitioners and teachers who used their (and others) experience of implementing the Dhamma to produce more detailed maps. Some don't.

But does the particular narrative (map, approach, etc) matter? Tilt's question is right to the point:
tiltbillings wrote:Does the traditional Burmese practitioner, who believes the Pali Canon [and commentaries - Mike] is literally true, fare any differently from the Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances, in terms of actual practice and the results thereof?
:anjali:
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:But does the particular narrative (map, approach, etc) matter? Tilt's question is right to the point:
tiltbillings wrote:Does the traditional Burmese practitioner, who believes the Pali Canon [and commentaries - Mike] is literally true, fare any differently from the Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances, in terms of actual practice and the results thereof?
I think everyone fares differently, according to their deeds (broadly speaking, to include all actions of mind and body). "Traditional Burmese practitioner" and "Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances" are merely two more narratives, to either subscribe to, or feel no resonance, as the case may be.
mikenz66 wrote:Clearly some feel an affinity for the ancient and modern practitioners and teachers who used their (and others) experience of implementing the Dhamma to produce more detailed maps. Some don't.
It probably depends on the detail of these maps and its applicability to one's journey. As a general rule, I actually find it more useful when people share their insights rather than the detailed methods they applied in getting to that insight... I think this is because of an intuitive awareness that everyone's life, journey and mode of experience is different, and that I work best when I experientially validate insights in my own way. Other people will share their insights with me and they will resonate with some pre-existing known truth and help to trigger further personal exploration. This internal approach is in stark contrast to "maps" requiring prescriptivity and adherence to some delineated and restrictive external "system".

Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:But does the particular narrative (map, approach, etc) matter? Tilt's question is right to the point:
tiltbillings wrote:Does the traditional Burmese practitioner, who believes the Pali Canon [and commentaries - Mike] is literally true, fare any differently from the Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances, in terms of actual practice and the results thereof?
I think everyone fares differently, according to their deeds (broadly speaking, to include all actions of mind and body). "Traditional Burmese practitioner" and "Westerner, who has parsed out all the historical text critical nuances" are merely two more narratives, to either subscribe to, or feel no resonance, as the case may be.
The interesting question is whether they lead to the same insights/liberation or not.
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Clearly some feel an affinity for the ancient and modern practitioners and teachers who used their (and others) experience of implementing the Dhamma to produce more detailed maps. Some don't.
It probably depends on the detail of these maps and its applicability to one's journey. As a general rule, I actually find it more useful when people share their insights rather than the detailed methods they applied in getting to that insight...
That's certainly true, though I find that in many discussion here there is a focus on what's in a sutta or whatever, to the exclusion of what people actually think/feel/experienced. How they made use of the suttas or other material. I think that it's probably inevitable --- online sharing of detailed experiences isn't something I'm particularly comfortable with.
retrofuturist wrote: I think this is because of an intuitive awareness that everyone's life, journey and mode of experience is different, and that I work best when I experientially validate insights in my own way. Other people will share their insights with me and they will resonate with some pre-existing known truth and help to trigger further personal exploration. This internal approach is in stark contrast to "maps" requiring prescriptivity and adherence to some delineated and restrictive external "system".
I've not seen a lot of prescriptiveness in my off-line experience. Most teachers I've encountered have a "try this and see how it works" approach that is quite fluid.
retrofuturist wrote: Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.
I don't think I've come across people with that particular problem.

:anjali:
Mike

'
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