Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
retrofuturist wrote:Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.
mikenz66 wrote:I don't think I've come across people with that particular problem.
I have. Even when the system or narrative is as high level as Buddhism (or "being Buddhist") itself, it can be an issue - people feel compelled to adhere to rites and rituals (broadly defined) which do not resonate.

An example I'm sure you're familiar with (at least online) is when people decide to change Buddhist traditions. This is essentially renouncing one narrative and set of instructions in favour of another.

I'm guessing this is partly why Ajahn Chah said, "Don't be an arahant, don't be a bodhisattva, don't be anything at all — if you are anything at all you will suffer.”

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote: Often when people seem to be "struggling with their practice", it's because they've boxed themselves into a system which is becoming ever-constricting and lifeless and detached from their wisdom - i.e. sacrificed the internal for the external.
I don't think I've come across people with that particular problem.
I would say we have seen a fair amount of that expressed here over the years rather graphically by a few of the anti-Burmese vipassana folks, as in a fairly long fruitless involvement with Burmese vipassana before moving onto something that supposedly is better.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rohana
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by rohana »

retrofuturist wrote:It probably depends on the detail of these maps and its applicability to one's journey. As a general rule, I actually find it more useful when people share their insights rather than the detailed methods they applied in getting to that insight... I think this is because of an intuitive awareness that everyone's life, journey and mode of experience is different, and that I work best when I experientially validate insights in my own way.
Retro, Mike,

Perhaps you guys can expand on this a little bit. For example, a Hindu tantrika, and a Vajrayāna practitioner both may talk about a non-dual experience is very similar terms. Then the Hindu might say that both herself and the Vajrayāna practitioner are having the same experience (based on her 'map' which calls this experience the supreme goal), while the Vajrayānika might disagree. And another person(say, a Theravada practitioner) might say they're both experiencing a formless attainment, which is not the supreme goal. So insights, it seems to me, is harder to describe than maps, so where does that leave us?

To take a more concrete example, consider the 'anidassana viññāṇa'. Ven. Ñāṇānanda claims it to be a supra-mundane experience available to an Arahant, which ceases with parinibbāna. Ajahn Amaro seems to claim it is the same as the Dzogchen rigpa. Ven. Thanissaro describes it as a supra-mundane consciousness, but leaves open the possibility of its continuation after parinibbāna. There are both similarities and differences in the way the three venerables describe and explain this insight.

And here's Joseph Goldstein on it, which may be relevant to this thread:
  • Two major things happened to me at that retreat. One is that I really struggled with the differences between vipassana and dzogchen. Because even though the dzogchen teachings, just like vipassana, felt resonant with my experience, it was saying quite different things about the nature of awareness and the mind.
    What was the difference?
    In the Burmese system, liberation involves transcending awareness. In dzogchen, liberation is recognizing that the nature of mind is awareness itself. These are two quite different ways of expressing things. I spent a month of that retreat trying to figure it out, trying to decide who was "right." I finally came to realize that I could understand both systems as skillful means rather than as statements of absolute truth.
    Well, that was a huge relief. But, of course, then the question arises, "Well, skillful means for what?" What I've come to understand more deeply over the years-and what I think is supported by the teachings in all of the Buddhist traditions-is that the liberated mind is the mind that does not cling to anything. In one discourse the Buddha said, "Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as I or mine. Whoever has realized this has realized all the teachings."
    All the different methods and metaphysical systems can be seen as skillful means to accomplish the mind of no-clinging. This understanding really freed me from attachments to metaphysical models that I didn't even know I'd had. I'd been so completely immersed in the model of the Burmese teachings that when I came into contact with a different model, it became a huge conflict. I had just assumed that the particular way we speak of things was the truth, forgetting that the words were just skillful means for experiencing the mind that doesn't cling to anything. That's where the freedom is.

    An Interview with Joseph Goldstein
As Ajahn Chah said, we "can't know the taste of the fruit without eating it". So ultimately the goal of the Dhamma to be experienced. But then again, we don't go around eating every fruit we see; if it looks rotten or unripe from the outside, we avoid it and pick one that looks edible. Similarly, there's simply no way to experience all the goals promised by Vedanta, Taoism, Sufism, etc etc. So initially one has to make a decision based on the outer appearance and stick with it, at least to some extent. This is where approaches such as text-critical ones, and an understanding of history important. You don't need to tie yourself into knots trying to resolve what the Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra says about skillful means with the ethical guidelines put forth in the Pāli Suttas if you understand the historical background.


Some replies are split out here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 71#p262071
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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mikenz66
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks for the Goldstein quote Rohana,

That's the sort of thing that I had in mind. I liked this observation:
Goldstein wrote: I'd been so completely immersed in the model of the Burmese teachings that when I came into contact with a different model, it became a huge conflict.
I used to have that sort of reaction when attending teachings from secular or Zen teachers, after being immersed mostly in Theravada. And it tended to make me dismiss some of the really good points that they were making. I'd sit there arguing (internally) about something they mentioned in passing (a "true self" or some other concept that doesn't fit well with a Theravada model) and in the process I'd miss the really good points they were trying to make.

:anjali:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Rohana,
rohana wrote:Perhaps you guys can expand on this a little bit.
Firstly, I'll say I liked the Goldstein quote. That was good. :thumbsup:

Secondly, in relation to "insights", which is the part of my post that you specifically quoted, some of what you've called out by way of examples are what I would call "experiences", rather than "insights". To me, 'anidassana viññāṇa' isn't an insight per se.

I realise that some people might equate certain experiences and insights as synonymous, but for myself at least, I don't. I see "insights" as something which someone should be able to articulate and communicate to someone else, just like the Buddha did via his teachings - thus, they are exoteric, rather than esoteric. What did you learn from the experience? Even insights into the nature of nibbana can be explained by way of inference.

Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by m0rl0ck »

Personally, i have always liked Lin Chi's comment on narrative:
If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!
If you meet the patriarchs or the arhats on your way, kill them too...
Bodhidharma was an old bearded barbarian...
Nirvana and Bodhi are dead stumps to tie your donkey to.
The sacred teachings are only lists of ghosts, sheets of paper fit for wiping the pus from your boils.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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mikenz66
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

Some discussion that seemed to be veering off topic is split out here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 71#p262071

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

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retrofuturist wrote:Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.
I think if it's possible to change your mind about it, it's not Dhamma-insight.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Kirk,
kirk5a wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.
I think if it's possible to change your mind about it, it's not Dhamma-insight.
OK - is that simply appending to the above, or do you think I'm suggesting otherwise?

I will say however that until one is an arahant, simply having wisdom does not mean that one automatically applies it in subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The dynamic is more akin to what it outlined in MN 117...
Maha-cattarisaka Sutta wrote:"One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong action & for entering into right action: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right action.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,
kirk5a wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Sure, they mightn't be easily understood by others, either in part or in whole due to "dust over the eyes" or different frameworks of understanding with different concepts and definitions, but it is that articulated insight which when 'internalised' becomes one's known panna (wisdom) which guides subsequent actions of body, mind and speech. The process of internalising insights seems to be different for different people - here I can only speak for myself.
I think if it's possible to change your mind about it, it's not Dhamma-insight.
OK - is that simply appending to the above, or do you think I'm suggesting otherwise?
Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the language you used suggested to me insight as views, ideas, outlooks, conclusions, lines of reasoning, worldviews... and as such, unreliable, and not truly eliminating doubt. I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the language you used suggested to me insight as views, ideas, outlooks, conclusions, lines of reasoning, worldviews... and as such, unreliable, and not truly eliminating doubt. I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
I was speaking at this sort of level...
Kalama Sutta wrote:When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
I agree, there are apparently a variety of ways in which one can be deceived about mental and physical phenomena. However, I was simply reflecting on the difference between views, ideas, convictions and the like (conventional "insights") which are rather unreliable (one could change one's mind about such things in the future), and the actuality of one's own basic experience.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote: I was speaking at this sort of level...
Kalama Sutta wrote:When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said.
Sounds good indeed. In line with what I was thinking about, first of all, one knows the above for oneself (not simply "believing" such), and secondly, what one knows are qualities (not beliefs or narratives), which actually do lead to welfare and happiness. So that is going well beyond simply hanging on to some "narrative of liberation"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
Truth.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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