I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
kc2dpt_deactivated
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by kc2dpt_deactivated »

manas wrote:If I have an apple in my hand, and before me I see a starving beggar child, and a plump arahant on alms round, I will give the apple to the starving beggar child, yes even if that means I miss out on a million 'merit points' and a thousand years of feasting in Heaven.
Please pardon me for saying so, but this strikes me as a "strawman argument". I am aware of no such teaching in Buddhism which instructs us to give to a "plump arahant" before giving to a "starving beggar child".
How sad that some folks actually need to be threatened with pain and suffering, so that they restrain themselves from inflicting it on others.
There are many sad things about samsara, of which this is only one.

It is also sad when, upon seeing another person engaging in unwholesome behavior, contempt arises rather than compassion. May we find ways to eliminate contempt and cultivate compassion. And may we find peace.
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retrofuturist
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
kc2dpt wrote:
manas wrote:If I have an apple in my hand, and before me I see a starving beggar child, and a plump arahant on alms round, I will give the apple to the starving beggar child, yes even if that means I miss out on a million 'merit points' and a thousand years of feasting in Heaven.
Please pardon me for saying so, but this strikes me as a "strawman argument". I am aware of no such teaching in Buddhism which instructs us to give to a "plump arahant" before giving to a "starving beggar child"
Well it's not worded as such, but there are suttas that say an offering to an arahant yields greater merit to an offering to a non-arahant.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by kc2dpt_deactivated »

retrofuturist wrote:there are suttas that say an offering to an arahant yields greater merit to an offering to a non-arahant.
Which suttas?
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
King Kosala once asked the Buddha to whom alms should be given (S.i,98). The Buddha replied that alms should be given to those by giving to whom one becomes happy. Then the king asked another question: To whom should alms be offered to obtain great fruit? The Buddha discriminated the two as different questions and replied that alms offered to the virtuous bears great fruit. He further clarified that offerings yield great fruit when made to virtuous recluses who have eliminated the five mental hindrances (nivarana) and culivated moral habits, concentration, wisdom, emancipation and knowledge and vision of emancipation (sila, samadhi, pañña, vimutti, vimuttinanadassana).

...

The Magha Sutta (Sn.p.86) gives a detailed account of the virtues of the arahant to show to whom alms should be offered by one desiring merit. The Brahmanasamyutta (S.i,175) maintains that offerings bear greatest results when they are made to those who know their previous lives, who have seen heavens and hells, who have put an end to birth and who have realized ultimate knowledge. Thus the Sangha comprising morally perfect, worthy personages as described in the suttas constitutes the field of merit (punnakkhetta, M.i,447). Just as seeds sown in fertile well-watered fields yields bountiful crops, alms given to the virtuous established on the Noble Eightfold Path yield great results (A.iv,238; i,162). The Dhammapada maintains that fields have weeds as their blemish; lust, hatred, delusion and desire are the blemishes of people and therefore what is given to those who have eliminated those blemishes bears great fruit (Dhp. 356-59). The results of generosity are measured more by the quality of the field of merit represented by the recipient than by the quantity and value of the gift given.

The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,392-95) records a fabulous alms-giving conducted by the Bodhisatta when he was born as a brahman named Velama. Lavish gifts of silver, gold, elephants, cows, carriages, etc., not to mention food, drink and clothing, were distributed among everybody who came forward to receive them. But this open-handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is said to be more meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream-enterer (sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by Velama. It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream-enterers. Next in order come non-returners, arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana.
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el367.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by kc2dpt_deactivated »

retrofuturist wrote:there are suttas that say an offering to an arahant yields greater merit to an offering to a non-arahant.
Do these suttas instructs us to give to a "plump arahant" before giving to a "starving beggar child"?
What does it mean to "yield greater merit"?
I'd like to take a closer look at the suttas you referenced.

King Kosala once asked the Buddha to whom alms should be given (S.i,98). The Buddha replied that alms should be given to those by giving to whom one becomes happy.
It seems the OP would be happier giving to the starving beggar child than to the plump arahant.
Then the king asked another question: To whom should alms be offered to obtain great fruit?
I was troubled by how this question was phrased so I looked to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation for comparison:
Where does what is given become of great fruit?
I think there is a difference in talking about how one obtains great fruit and how a gift becomes great fruit. The former seems tied up with greed while the later speaks only of cause and effect. The OP objects to approaching the question of giving in terms of what the giver will get in return. I think this is a valid objection and I think the Bodhi translation avoids this issue. Now for the Buddha's answer...

The Buddha's answer to the first question is translated by Bodhi as "Wherever one's mind has confidence" which is also quite telling; it would seem the OP has little confidence in an alleged arahant who is plump.

The Buddha's answer to the second question is given by Bodhi as "What is given to one who is virtuous is of great fruit, not so what is given to an immoral person." It would seem a teaching regarding [a virtuous person vs an immoral person] is quite different than a teaching regarding [a starving beggar child vs a plump arahant].

He then gives a simile of, while at war, employing an unskilled soldier vs employing a skilled one. Paying the first is more useful than paying the second. Again, highlighting the objective cause and effect of ones actions rather than some mystical "acquiring of merit".

The Magha Sutta (Sn.p.86) gives a detailed account of the virtues of the arahant to show to whom alms should be offered by one desiring merit.
Again with the "desiring merit". I am willing to bet this is translated differently in other sources. I found one which asks "Where will the oblation of such an offerer prosper?" That certainly makes things clearer! :lol:

The Brahmanasamyutta (S.i,175) maintains that offerings bear greatest results...
Nothing more needs to be said.
Thus the Sangha ... constitutes the field of merit (punnakkhetta, M.i,447).
And what is a "field of merit"?

"Just as seeds sown in fertile well-watered fields yields bountiful crops, alms given to the virtuous ... yield great results (A.iv,238; i,162). The Dhammapada maintains that fields have weeds as their blemish; lust, hatred, delusion and desire are the blemishes of people and therefore what is given to those who have eliminated those blemishes bears great fruit (Dhp. 356-59)."

The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,392-95) records... better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness".
In this sutta we read: "If one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will, that would be more fruitful than... if one were to feed 100 arahants."


As I said, I do not know of a teaching which instructs us to give to a "plump arahant" before giving to a "starving beggar child". I do know that Buddhism has often been misunderstood and even mistaught as having as it's highest goal a "million 'merit points' and a thousand years of feasting in Heaven" but I do not think this is borne out by a reading of the actual texts.
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by pegembara »

Let's break down the problem using the Dalai Lama as an example... not saying that he is or isn't an arahant.

Feed a starving child and you save one life. That is good. The DL doesn't need your help and feeding him has minimal impact. The DL continues with his good works and impacting many lives.

If both are starving, saving the DL is more "meritorious" as the end result would be potentially many more lives can be helped.

You can substitute Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Teresa and the like for the arahant.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by mikenz66 »

Welcome back...
kc2dpt wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:there are suttas that say an offering to an arahant yields greater merit to an offering to a non-arahant.
Do these suttas instructs us to give to a "plump arahant" before giving to a "starving beggar child"?
What does it mean to "yield greater merit"?
I'd like to take a closer look at the suttas you referenced.
...
Thanks for the helpful analysis.

This sutta on the results of giving is also worth reflecting on:
This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, if beings knew, as I know, the result of giving and sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would they allow the stain of meanness to obsess them and take root in their minds. Even if it were their last morsel, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared it, if there were someone to share it with. But, bhikkhus, as beings do not know, as I know, the result of giving and sharing, they eat without having given, and the stain of meanness obsesses them and takes root in their minds."

If beings only knew —
So said the Great Sage —
How the result of sharing
Is of such great fruit,
With a gladdened mind,
Rid of the stain of meanness,
They would duly give to noble ones
Who make what is given fruitful.

Having given much food as offerings
To those most worthy of offerings,
The donors go to heaven
On departing the human state.
Having gone to heaven they rejoice,
And enjoying pleasures there,
The unselfish experience the result
Of generously sharing with others.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-026
:anjali:
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by Ceisiwr »

Seems we have some options

1) Give to the arahant, and let the child die, yet "I" get merit and so do future being's from the arahant being sustained for longer.

2) Give to the child and let the arahant die. So "I" get merit yet the child lives but the arahant dies, yet the child may become an arahant and fulfil the end of the above sentence.

3) Give to neither and sustain oneself, the child and arahant will die yet one can have wisdom from this act and become an arahant

The point is that the outcome it unknown, yet the intention defines the "morality".


However there are many variables, such as one can feed oneself and let both die, and not gain wisdom or the child could live and could not become enlightened.

Once again, there are so many outcomes to one situation. That is why, to me, intention is key.

Be sceptical to the outcome (as buddha said) and rely on subjective wisdom, which is born from empirical investigation into subjective phenomena.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by seeker242 »

"Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.AN 3.33
Giving food to a plump arahant, instead of a starving child, just so you can make more merit for yourself, seems pretty greedy if you ask me! Actions born out of greed can hardly be considered meritorious IMO.

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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by beeblebrox »

I think this could be an option: bring the child with you and ask the arahant if he would like to share some of your food with him.

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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by pilgrim »

I had just re-read the Velama sutta again. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The sutta explains that it is of great merit to make an offering to a person of right view, and even greater merit to a sotapanna, then a sakadagami , then anagami, then the Buddha. I think the logic of that is quite easily understandable as supporting a person with greater virtue brings more goodness to the world.

But then the sutta ends with "If one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will, that would be more fruitful than...(all of the above)". What I understand this to mean is that there is greater merit in acting out of kindness than to act out of a desire to gain merit. So if one has a gift in hand which one is bringing to a temple for dana to an arahant, and one knows there will be plenty of food offered by others, then if one's heart so moves, there is greater merit to donate that packet of food to a starving refugee.

So yes, feeding a starving child could be more meritorious than feeding a plump arahant like Ven Kaccayana, if that is motivated by kindness and not after reading this post. :tongue:
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by Zom »

What I understand this to mean is that there is greater merit in acting out of kindness than to act out of a desire to gain merit. So if one has a gift in hand which one is bringing to a temple for dana to an arahant, and one knows there will be plenty of food offered by others, then if one's heart so moves, there is greater merit to donate that packet of food to a starving refugee.
Actually, no. Don't forget, that, yes, personal motivation is important, but the object of giving is much more important if we talk about merits. Some poor refugee is nothing in comparison with an arahant. It is like a glass of water in comparison with the limitless ocean. Or like a lone planet in comparison with a galaxy of billions of stars. And so the result of dana will differ this much as well - no matter what your motivation is (actually, there is a sutta which tells that even bad personal motivation brings enourmous merit if dana was given to an arahant).

And also, there is another sutta - MN 142 - which tells that 4 bhikkhus (sangha) is even a better field than 1 arahant. So, yes, if you bring dana to the monastery with 4 monks or more (and they accept it), your merit is incalculable while merit gained from helping some poor guy is almost nothing.

However, here we should also mention one more thing - that is - difference between merits and personal qualities. Merits is a wordly thing and will make you feel good in samsara for quite a long period of time. However personal qualities is something which helps you to reach nibbana. Merits alone are not sufficient to reach nibbana, while personal qualities are. In this sense, yes, it is better to be kind and compassionate rather than egoistic and greedy (for merits), and yes, dana to some poor beggar can develop your kindness and compassion more than dana to some rich monastery. But your merits won't be so good if you keep ignoring dana to monks.
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by pilgrim »

If you look at the penultimate paragraph of the Velama sutta, after it has enumerated all the great merits of offerings to the Buddha, sangha and ariyas, it says ""If one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will, that would be more fruitful than...(all of the above).." Dana to the sangha is of course excellent. They are an incomparable field of merits. However, all things being equal, the motivation to give should not be to gain merits but one of altruism and kindness.

Note 1 at the bottom of the page observes "The merit of the gift is determined more by the state of mind with which it is given than by the external quality of the gift."
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by Zom »

I don't think this sentence in Velama sutta should be undrestood literally. For example, there are some similar sentences about metta in SN suttas but there it is to be understood figuratively. I've already written the difference between merit gaining and qualities development and that sentence in Velama sutta is, of course, not about merits, but about qualities. Metta is a "merit" figuratevily - not literally. While dana is a "merit" literally, not figuratevily.
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Post by vacvvm »

I think the key is remembering that intention is the heart of the gift, the same action can bear different fruits depending on its skillfulness or unskillfulness.
Eating a big healthy meal like a ravenous beast will nourish your body but drive you away from happiness, eating a grain of rice with mindfulness in pursuit of nibbana is immensely more beneficial.
Helping any ordinary being to live another day is meritorious, because it's one more day they'll have a chance to see truth and point themselves toward liberation, but because they aren't developed enough to truly experience gratitude, the gift is stunted. Merit isn't accrued by keeping the wheel of samsara spinning (aimlessly keeping all beings alive) but by helping the wheel to stop (assisting beings toward liberation)
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