Buddhist Eschatology

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pannapetar
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Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Pannapetar »

2012 is coming closer and quite a few people are now fearing (again!) the end of the world. I guess these voices will be quiet in 2013, no matter whether the world has then disappeared or not. :tongue:

But what about Buddhism? The Pali canon apparently predicted that Buddhism would last only 500 years:
If, Ananda, women had not entered from household life into the houseless one, under the Doctrine and the Discipline announced by the Tathagata religion, Ananda, would long endure; a thousand years would the Good Doctrine abide. But since, Ananda, women have now retired from household life to the houseless one, under the Doctrine and the Discipline announced by the Tathagata, not long, Ananda, will religion endure; but fivehundred years, Ananda, will the Good Doctrine abide.

Quote from the Sutta Pitaka (no exact source), The Oxford Handbook of Eschatology By Jerry L. Walls
The shelf-life figure of 500 years has later been extended several times by various Buddhist scholars, obviously due to practical necessity, first to 1000 years, then to 2500 years and finally to the current 5000 years which was popularised by Buddhaghosa. To me, this speaks quite a strong message, namely that speculations on how long Buddhism will last are very likely a major waste of time. Since it is something that we cannot possibly verify -at least not in this lifetime- why bother at all?

What do you think?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by tiltbillings »

The 500 years were if women were allowed to becomes nuns, but with the additional rules for the nuns the strength of the dispensation was protected. At least that how it could be read. The commentarial tradition expands on this:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache%3Am ... l=en&gl=us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:FxY ... clnk&gl=us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Pannapetar »

Hello tiltbillings,

The assertions in the first document you linked above, strikes me as exactly the kind of statements one should seek to avoid after having learned of the mentioned eschatological "mishaps".

Cheers, Thomas
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DNS
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by DNS »

The 500 year quote, as far as I know and have seen, is only mentioned in one place in the Vinaya.

The 5,000 year ending of this dispensation is only in the commentaries, not in any place in the Suttas. In fact, in the Suttas, the Buddha does not give a specific time table for the ending of the Dhamma and states:

"When the letters are wrongly pronounced and there is wrong interpretation of their meaning. For when the pronunciation is wrong, the interpretation will also be wrong" (AN .I,59)

Now that we live in an information age with printed books and the internet, there is even less chance for the Dhamma to be lost anytime soon.
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Individual »

TheDhamma wrote:The 500 year quote, as far as I know and have seen, is only mentioned in one place in the Vinaya.

The 5,000 year ending of this dispensation is only in the commentaries, not in any place in the Suttas. In fact, in the Suttas, the Buddha does not give a specific time table for the ending of the Dhamma and states:
Why should this matter? What makes Vinaya less reliable than the suttas? Vinaya is just as old as or older than the suttas. I think it would be more relevant to ask if this passage is found across different versions of Vinaya, so we could speculate it might merely be an innovation at some point.
TheDhamma wrote: Now that we live in an information age with printed books and the internet, there is even less chance for the Dhamma to be lost anytime soon.
This is also the age of nuclear weapons, information warfare, military robots, energy weapons, etc..
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by DNS »

Thomas William Rhys Davids in his Buddhist India (p. 188) has given a chronological table of Buddhist literature from the time of the Buddha to the time of Ashoka which is as follows:

1. The simple statements of Buddhist doctrine now found, in identical words, in paragraphs or verses recurring in all the books.
2. Episodes found, in identical words, in two or more of the existing books.
3. The Silas, the Parayana, the Octades, the Patimokkha.
4. The Digha, Majjhima, Anguttara, and Samyutta Nikayas.
5. The Sutta Nipata, the Thera and Theri Gathas, the Udanas, and the Khuddaka Patha
6. The Sutta Vibhanga, and Khandhkas.
7. The Jatakas and the Dhammapadas.
8. The Niddesa, the Itivuttakas and the Patisambbhida.
9. The Peta and Vimana-Vatthus, the Apadana, the Cariya-Pitaka, and the Buddhavamsa.
10. The Abhidhamma books; the last of which is the Katha-Vatthu, and the earliest probably the Puggala-Pannatti.

The 500 years quote I think is in the SV, #6 above and the 5,000 year quote is in the commentaries, #11 above (if there was a #11).

The higher up on the list, the older the text and probably more likely to be authentic, in my opinion. I'm not saying that #6 to 10 are not authentic, but I prefer to focus on the earliest of texts, found in the Nikayas and the Patimokkha-part of the Vinaya.
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Pannapetar
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Pannapetar »

Thank you, TheDhamma, that was very interesting.

The Oxford Handbook of Eschatology By Jerry L. Walls gives details on the multiple revisions of the prediction.

Considering that Buddhism itself teaches that the future is not set in stone and that there is no way for us to verify or falsify such long-term predictions, they are of little value.

Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Dhammakid »

Hello all,
Forgive me if I'm reviving old skeletons. I promise I mean no harm and I don't mean to start a debate or argument. I just never found out the reasoning of the Buddha's proclamation that female ordination shortens the sasana. If anyone has information on this, I would appreciate it. This is just for my own piece of mind.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by kc2dpt »

The Buddha didn't give any reason.

He did give an analogy but the meaning of the analogy isn't obvious.
- Peter

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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by DNS »

Dhammakid wrote: Forgive me if I'm reviving old skeletons. I promise I mean no harm and I don't mean to start a debate or argument. I just never found out the reasoning of the Buddha's proclamation that female ordination shortens the sasana. If anyone has information on this, I would appreciate it. This is just for my own piece of mind.
There are a few possibilities:

1. The Buddha never said it. (It is only mentioned once, in a later text)

2. He said it because the societal conditions of the time were highly sexist and the 8 heavy rules allowed the dispensation to last longer, instead of just 500. (Commentaries' position)

3. He said it and Buddhism did not survive more than 500 to 900 years in India after the parinibbana, because of the sexism of the time. The Buddha made rules and changed rules as the timing necessitated it.

4. The Buddha would have quickly changed the rule as societies became less sexist, but they were not at his time. At the time of the Buddha, the Hindus did not allow women to be priests, the Jains allowed women to be nuns but had no chance at liberation. In the Buddha's teachings, he was already way advanced in that hundreds, perhaps thousands of women became fully enlightened Arahants.
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Dhammakid »

Peter wrote:The Buddha didn't give any reason.

He did give an analogy but the meaning of the analogy isn't obvious.
Thanks. Are you able to post the analogy?

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by DNS »

Dhammakid wrote: Thanks. Are you able to post the analogy?
Hi Dhammakid,

I know you were asking Peter, but I happen to have that quote handy, so hope you don't mind if I answer:

"But, Ānanda, if women had not obtained the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata, the holy life would have lasted long, the true Dhamma would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that they have gotten to go forth... this holy life will not last long, the true Dhamma will last only 500 years. Just as a clan in which there are many women and few men is easily plundered by robbers and thieves, in the same way, in whatever doctrine and discipline women get to go forth, the holy life does not last long... Just as a man might make an embankment in advance around a great reservoir to keep the waters from overflowing, in the same way I have set forth in advance the eight rules of respect for bhikkhunīs that they are not to transgress as long as they live." — Cullavagga X.1

Note that the analogy seems to suggest that there may have been concern over the safety of the bhikkhunis and in fact many bhikkhunis were attacked in the early days.
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Dhammakid »

TheDhamma wrote: 2. He said it because the societal conditions of the time were highly sexist and the 8 heavy rules allowed the dispensation to last longer, instead of just 500. (Commentaries' position)
What are the 8 heavy rules?
TD wrote: 3. He said it and Buddhism did not survive more than 500 to 900 years in India after the parinibbana, because of the sexism of the time. The Buddha made rules and changed rules as the timing necessitated it.
Are you saying the pure Dhamma actually didn't survive in India as a matter of the fulfilled prophecy?
TD wrote: 4. The Buddha would have quickly changed the rule as societies became less sexist, but they were not at his time. At the time of the Buddha, the Hindus did not allow women to be priests, the Jains allowed women to be nuns but had no chance at liberation. In the Buddha's teachings, he was already way advanced in that hundreds, perhaps thousands of women became fully enlightened Arahants.
This is what I had been thinking about, and why I am so confused.

Sorry, my brain isn't processing well today.

Thanks.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by kc2dpt »

It's on A2I somewhere. I don't remember where.
- Peter

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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by DNS »

Dhammakid wrote: What are the 8 heavy rules?
See this article I wrote explaining the 8 heavy rules and the problems with them:
http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=8_Garudhammas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dhammakid wrote: Are you saying the pure Dhamma actually didn't survive in India as a matter of the fulfilled prophecy?
It is certainly a possibility. Buddhism did not survive in India and even to this day, there is still a lot of sexism there.
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