Buddhist Eschatology

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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kc2dpt
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by kc2dpt »

Found it.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch23.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Just as a clan in which there are many women and few men is easily plundered by robbers and thieves, in the same way, in whatever doctrine and discipline women get to go forth, the holy life does not last long... Just as a man might make an embankment in advance around a great reservoir to keep the waters from overflowing, in the same way I have set forth in advance the eight rules of respect for bhikkhunīs that they are not to transgress as long as they live." — Cv.X.1
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Pannapetar
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Pannapetar »

TheDhamma wrote:He said it and Buddhism did not survive more than 500 to 900 years in India after the parinibbana, because of the sexism of the time. The Buddha made rules and changed rules as the timing necessitated it.
Even this prediction would be wrong, because we can put a fairly accurate timestamp on the vanishing of Buddhism from India during the Muslim conquest. So we are talking about at least 1500 years.

Cheers, Thomas
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Dhammakid
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Dhammakid »

TD,
Thanks very much for your explanations and the article you wrote. It really clears up a lot of things for me.

Peter,
Yes, you are right about the analogies. They don't really make the reasoning clear. It's not something I will latch onto, however. It doesn't seem this idea is particularly important for practice anyway.

:anjali: to you both.
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Sylvester
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Sylvester »

An anachronism from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, DN 16 -

"42. "There was a time, Ananda, when I dwelt at Uruvela, on the bank of the Nerañjara River, at the foot of the goatherds' banyan-tree, soon after my supreme Enlightenment. And Mara, the Evil One, approached me, saying: 'Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away! Let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.'

43. "Then, Ananda, I answered Mara, the Evil One, saying: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by appropriate conduct and, having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.

44. "'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until this holy life taught by me has become successful, prosperous, far-renowned, popular, and widespread, until it is well proclaimed among gods and men.'

45. "And again today, Ananda, at the Capala shrine, Mara, the Evil One, approached me, saying: 'Now, O Lord, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples of the Blessed One — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding in the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; and when adverse opinions arise, they are now able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma
."

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 1st part highlighted, if tied to the chronology in the Vinaya Mahavagga, First Khandakha, would have taken place sometime during the 2nd week after the Buddha's enlightenment. A bit difficult to see why the Buddha did not plan for the bhikkhuni order (if the "prophecy" were authentic) when this sutta indicates that the establishment of the 4-fold parissa was in the Buddha's mind very early in his career.
rowyourboat
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by rowyourboat »

From what I have heard- they didn't use time spans like we do now- ie- a 1000 years simply meant a long time and 500 means half of that.

I wondered about the timing of the original request for womens ordination- was it around the time of the Buddhas first visit to his home town? If it happened during the early days of the dispensation, it might have been too much of death blow if it was allowed early on, considering the societal view at the time, and how dependant the monks were on general society. However after the sangha grew stronger such blows could be withstood.

We must also consider that there maybe something about the 'female' psyche in a religious setting (not being sexist or steareotyping but generally we must accept that some characterstics are more prevalent in the female mind- helpful and unhelpful in the journey towards nibbana, and similarly in men), that we dont know about, that the buddha did know. Or maybe it was to do with the interaction between monks and nuns and the hindrances that throws up. Maybe he knew of previous religious traditions which were wiped out in this manner. Maybe if this started out as a women's movement there would be similar problems admitting me into ordination. Many maybes..

Looking at the extra 8 vinaya rules IMO these were designed to ofset the balance of power - perhaps to maintain society's perceptions- at the same time allowing women to ordain and practice- certainly they were no hindrance to the practice of attaining nibbana. This may have been the best way forward.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by kc2dpt »

Sylvester wrote:A bit difficult to see why the Buddha did not plan for the bhikkhuni order (if the "prophecy" were authentic)...
Who says the Buddha didn't plan for the bhikkhuni order? Just because he said no a few times and then said yes doesn't really tell us anything about what his original intentions were. So choose to read the events as Ananda changing the Buddha's mind. Others choose to read the same events as the Buddha waiting for Ananda to ask in the right way and knowing Ananda will eventually do so.

In other words, some believe the Buddha was able to have his mind changed and some people believe the whole conversation was inevitable. In other words, do you believe it is possible the Buddha would not have ordained women? Similarly, do you believe it is possible the Buddha would never have taught anyone were it not for Brahma asking him to?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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appicchato
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by appicchato »

Peter wrote:...do you believe it is possible the Buddha would not have ordained women? Similarly, do you believe it is possible the Buddha would never have taught anyone were it not for Brahma asking him to?
Can't tell without a program...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Ceisiwr »

Essentially, from what i understand, the Buddha thought it wouldnt last a long because of the vunerable state women were in at the time



As for the prediction we will never really know what was said, i see the time of 500 years as added later. To me he would have just said that it wouldnt last as long, of course just my thoughts cant really prove either way



I dont think the words have any real meaning now though since Buddhism has spread to far and wide and the modern world is now a better place for women (mostly). In effect i find it redundant


The prediction of his that i do agree with is that the teaching disappears when there are no more monks or nuns or laymen/women (paraphrased from a sutta)

Of course this is obvious as to why
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Dhammakid
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Dhammakid »

If you all don't mind me asking: is there any indication of what exactly the Buddha thought would happen to the pure Dhamma if women were ordained? Did he believe sexist political efforts would intentionally change the Dhamma in a manner oppressive to women, therefore staining the pure Dhamma? Something like that?

I don't think the words have any real meaning, either, per se. However, there are still Buddhist countries who refuse to ordain women. It seems the Buddha's words have been interpreted so many ways. In that sense, there is still some meaning to them today.

:anjali:
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kc2dpt
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammakid wrote:is there any indication of what exactly the Buddha thought would happen to the pure Dhamma if women were ordained?
Other than what I've already posted, I'm not aware of anything.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Sylvester
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Sylvester »

Peter wrote:
Sylvester wrote:A bit difficult to see why the Buddha did not plan for the bhikkhuni order (if the "prophecy" were authentic)...
Who says the Buddha didn't plan for the bhikkhuni order? Just because he said no a few times and then said yes doesn't really tell us anything about what his original intentions were. So choose to read the events as Ananda changing the Buddha's mind. Others choose to read the same events as the Buddha waiting for Ananda to ask in the right way and knowing Ananda will eventually do so.

In other words, some believe the Buddha was able to have his mind changed and some people believe the whole conversation was inevitable. In other words, do you believe it is possible the Buddha would not have ordained women? Similarly, do you believe it is possible the Buddha would never have taught anyone were it not for Brahma asking him to?
Hi Peter.

I'm not sure if I understand your queries in the 2nd paragraph. If you meant to suggest that the Buddha was waiting for Ananda's request and Brahma Sahampati's invitation on the 2 occassions pertaining to the bhikkhuni ordination and the Dispensation, that does seem plausible. I believe that is how the Commentaries explain the Buddha's wait for Brahma Sahampati's Invitation, which is also consistent with the Buddha having decided to establish the Dispensation in the 2nd week after his enlightenment, while the Invitation took place a few weeks later. I recall reading that Commentaries suggest that it is a rule that Buddhas wait for a Brahma's invitation before starting to teach.

But our Gotama Buddha did not seem to have followed all of the "rules". The Commentary mentions that as a rule, Buddhas fly from Neranjara to Isipatana to turn the Dhamma Wheel. Gotama Buddha decided to walk the road, in order to meet Upaka. Does the establishment of the 4-fold parissa form part of the inevitable rules of a Buddha's career? I seriously would not wish to speculate.

The point I was hoping to make is that the message in DN 16 seems to be inconsistent with the prophecy for the shortening of the Dispensation. As DN 16 puts it, the parissa would be -

"wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by appropriate conduct and, having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma".

There's no hint here of the Dispensation decaying with the establishment of the bhikkhuni order.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by kc2dpt »

Sylvester wrote:The point I was hoping to make is that the message in DN 16 seems to be inconsistent with the prophecy for the shortening of the Dispensation. As DN 16 puts it, the parissa would be -

"wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by appropriate conduct and, having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma".

There's no hint here of the Dispensation decaying with the establishment of the bhikkhuni order.
To you it seems inconsistent. To others it provides a clue. For it to be consistent, the establishment of the bhikkhuni order would have to lead to a decline or breakdown of one or more points in DN16. In other words...

if A = B and C and D and E
and
if !A = Z
then it follows that
Z = !B or !C or !D or !E

Off the top of my head... "plundered by robbers and thieves" seems to imply a threat from outside and in that list that seems to only match with "refute adverse opinions". If that is so, the it means admitting women to the order makes the order as a whole less able to refute adverse opinions. I don't know why that would be, but there it is.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Sylvester
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by Sylvester »

Thanks Peter.

I hope to one day be able to divine the clue.
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fig tree
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by fig tree »

Possibly interesting: http://www.buddhistethics.org/6/chung991.pdf
Peter wrote:Who says the Buddha didn't plan for the bhikkhuni order?
Now I can't find where, but it's been argued that the notion of establishing a "fourfold community" is a fairly consistent theme in the canon, and unlikely to have been "incidental" change of plan.

Fig Tree
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cooran
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Re: Buddhist Eschatology

Post by cooran »

fig tree wrote:Possibly interesting: http://www.buddhistethics.org/6/chung991.pdf
Peter wrote:Who says the Buddha didn't plan for the bhikkhuni order?
Now I can't find where, but it's been argued that the notion of establishing a "fourfold community" is a fairly consistent theme in the canon, and unlikely to have been "incidental" change of plan.

Fig Tree

Thanks Fig Tree. For those who can't read the whole 77 pages - just skim to page 60 and 61 for the Conclusion.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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