experiencing anatta?

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experiencing anatta?

Postby palm » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:32 pm

Hi Forum,
This is my first post here, please help.

I'm Thai so i have access to some material from buddhadasa indapanno's which are unfortunately not translated into other languages yet. Anyway, Buddhadasa stressed so much on non-self. He went so far as to state that it's ultimately the main goal of us practitioners.

Yesterday on my session, i experience the 'self' of mine very vividly. This experience of self is so solid and real almost as if i can touch it. I felt that i am, having body, having my family, my wife, my 2 daughters, my home, etc... i mean Come on! Non-self? Why is the self so real?

This is my question. What is this not-self that Buddhism speak off. Is it
1.) a conceptual understanding that this life is finite, is ever changing, so it is not worth clinging to?
2.) an experience where you can actually see 'self' dissolving, disintegrating before your eyes?
3.) non of the above.

Than you for reading my questions.

Palm
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Re: experiencing anatta?

Postby SamKR » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:45 pm

I would choose 3) non of the above.

In my understanding:
Strictly speaking, you can not "experience" anatta; anatta is realized. Only pure experiences can be experienced. When there is mere experience in any experience (seen, herad, sensed, cognized), then there is realization that there is no "I" there; there was no "I" ever in the first place. So, it is not that any "self" dissolves to achieve "no-self" stage. Only the belief-of-self dissolves when there is realization.
Last edited by SamKR on Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: experiencing anatta?

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:33 pm

palm wrote:Hi Forum,
This is my first post here, please help.

I'm Thai so i have access to some material from buddhadasa indapanno's which are unfortunately not translated into other languages yet. Anyway, Buddhadasa stressed so much on non-self. He went so far as to state that it's ultimately the main goal of us practitioners.

Yesterday on my session, i experience the 'self' of mine very vividly. This experience of self is so solid and real almost as if i can touch it. I felt that i am, having body, having my family, my wife, my 2 daughters, my home, etc... i mean Come on! Non-self? Why is the self so real?

This is my question. What is this not-self that Buddhism speak off. Is it
1.) a conceptual understanding that this life is finite, is ever changing, so it is not worth clinging to?
2.) an experience where you can actually see 'self' dissolving, disintegrating before your eyes?
3.) non of the above.

Than you for reading my questions.

Palm


Hi Palm ,

To my knowledge , the experience of deep anicca ( change ) , gives rise to the experience to dukkha ( sorrow) , which then gives rise to annata , which then again reinforces anicca . Inter-dependence........

Well if you have experienced solidity in one of your sessions , so be it . It is very normal for one to keep " feeling this feeling " again and again. Its very patiently that we have to deal with ourselves , in order to go deeper and deeper , and feel and experience the arising and vanishing away of all the six senses. This may happen the next moment or may take incalculable aeons together . But then time is very relative , and we should not be burdened with the saddle of time. As the saying goes " Kalam Agmaya" time has no meaning , for one who walks on the path of knowledge......

warm regards,
sanjay
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Re: experiencing anatta?

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:36 pm

palm wrote:Hi Forum,
This is my first post here, please help.

I'm Thai so i have access to some material from buddhadasa indapanno's which are unfortunately not translated into other languages yet. Anyway, Buddhadasa stressed so much on non-self. He went so far as to state that it's ultimately the main goal of us practitioners.

Yesterday on my session, i experience the 'self' of mine very vividly. This experience of self is so solid and real almost as if i can touch it. I felt that i am, having body, having my family, my wife, my 2 daughters, my home, etc... i mean Come on! Non-self? Why is the self so real?

This is my question. What is this not-self that Buddhism speak off. Is it
1.) a conceptual understanding that this life is finite, is ever changing, so it is not worth clinging to?
2.) an experience where you can actually see 'self' dissolving, disintegrating before your eyes?
3.) non of the above.

Than you for reading my questions.

Palm


Hi Palm,

What you say , happens more often than not . Its just a truth of the moment ( feels very real though ), and we have to be very patient with ourselves in slowly and steadily going beyond this apparent truth.

Anatta , is felt deeply , when we feel Anicca (changing ) , which gives rise to Dukkha( sorrow ). The three truths are very much inter-dependent , and goes about in gradually making a change in our way of how we think , ponder and act. Intentional killing of any kind a being completely evaporates .......

Warm regards,
sanjay
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Re: experiencing anatta?

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:02 pm

SamKR wrote:I would choose 3) non of the above.
In my opinion:
Strictly speaking, you can not "experience" anatta; anatta is realized. Only pure experiences can be experienced. When there is mere experience in any experience (seen, herad, sensed, cognized), then there is realization that there is no "I" there; there was no "I" ever in the first place.
So, it is not that any "self" dissolves to achieve "no-self" stage. Only the belief-of-self dissolves when there is realization.



Very well put across Sir.

Realization is the key , that goes beyond experience .

with much regards,
sanjay
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Re: experiencing anatta?

Postby Derek » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:09 pm

It's more like a change in the perspective by which experiences are construed. Seeing anatta is called "stream entry" in the tradition or "spiritual awakening" outside the tradition. See my website if you want my take on it.
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Re: experiencing anatta?

Postby palm » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:37 am

Thank you very much for every comments. You guys are much needed supports for someone like me. (self study with no propper mentor)

I have a follow up question, specifically to SamKR's response, if i may. I do not quite understand when you said 'realization'. Is it not the same thing as known through interlectual understanding? I guess my question here is different, how?

Second, the word realization seems to connote stuck-in-your-mind-forever. (pardon my english) My question here is once one had realized anatta, do one then 'forget' and go back to the belief of solid me again? Is it like, i realized that eating junkfood is bad to my body. I've read scientific studies about them. I've eaten them and felt bad the next morning. I 'realized' it. But in a spur of a moment, when super hungry, i picked up a phone and order pizza hut again. (that realization wasn't gone, but i act as though i forgot.)

The same question goes for Derek's "change in perspective". if seeing anatta is changing perspective, does one sometime change it back?

Much apprieciated.

Palm
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Re: experiencing anatta?

Postby vishy89 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:32 am

I struggled for 25 years to understand that. Just see if these points help you.

The all- which is the world (5senses+mind , the objests and the experiences.) includes all experienced phenomena (seen) and experience of all beings. The all is a 'given'. It exists and is in a constant flux.The all includes seeing and vedanas of all the beings.

The seeing(that includes all 6 sense experiences and objects) is not conditional upon an I or mine .Know that knowing, vedana and external objects are the world, of the world and part of the world-Lokiya-. There is no I or mine in all the experiences which we undergo. Beause even our senses and sense experiences are part of the world, are transient and vanish over time.

Imagine 100 persons seeing a rainbow.The peculiar position of water drops, sun's rays and the position of each observer determines the seeing. Each one sees a different rainbow though very similar to others. There is also happiness and possibly desire to perpetuate the experience in some of them. All these together belong to the world and there is no I or mine anywhere.

I is part of ignorance. Ditthi, Maana and Tanha are part of ignorance and they coexist and support each other.

There is no I or mine in your waking and dreaming . Just go over your waking and dreaming experiences in te past few days and confirm that there never has been a permanent I or mine in your experiences. They are always part of the phenomenal world.

The pain/pleasure in your body are part of the phenomenal universe. And so are the pleasures and pains of the mind. There is no I to whom these belong.

I must admit that I obtained this clarity while listening to and reading a Gnani who was not an othodox Buddhist to my knowledge.

Metta
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