Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by daverupa »

Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...

I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.

I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.

/ :soap:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dave,

I've been reading some of it (there is too much of it for me to really digest all of it). Particularly your contributions, and replies to your contributions. :smile:

As you say, it's all over the place on all sorts of issues, most of which seem to have little to do with the OP.

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...

I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.

I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.

/ :soap:
What thread are you referencing here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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imagemarie
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by imagemarie »

"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
Yes, over on Dharma Wheel:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040
It is now up to 33 pages, though most of that does not directly address the topic. Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...

:anjali:
Mike
daverupa
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates. I'm not sure why self-reflexivity has even come up as a hinge issue there... the early Buddhist texts seem to have been mostly, though perhaps politely, ignored.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Kim OHara
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by Kim OHara »

tiltbillings wrote:
imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.
Not necessarily. Many of our politicians don't manage such a feat :toilet:
But probably, since you are who you are. :smile:

:coffee:
Kim
chownah
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by chownah »

daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates.
From Tibetan tenet system perspective, which is hardly an accurate portrayal of Indian Yogachara. It all makes me very glad not to be a Mahayanist.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

Kim OHara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.
Not necessarily. Many of our politicians don't manage such a feat :toilet:
But probably, since you are who you are. :smile:

:coffee:
Kim
Why, thanks for the rather dim compliment.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by daverupa »

chownah wrote:daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
I'm pretty confused by that as well. As far as I can tell, it's being used by certain Mahayana folk to describe a quality of vinnana, such that not only does vinnana take an object, but vinnana also cognizes the presence of vinnana.

I'm pretty sure this is motivated by further considerations, re: Buddha-Nature, but it's not a Nikaya premise - nothing hangs on it, but the orange 'vinnana' in the previous paragraph is probably more accurately termed 'citta' - and as far as I can tell it's nowhere in the early prajnaparamita, so the thread over there is basically a bust.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
chownah
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by chownah »

daverupa,
Seems like consciousness recognizing its own presence is a way of describing sentience......but I don't know.....
chownah
daverupa
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by daverupa »

chownah wrote:daverupa,
Seems like consciousness recognizing its own presence is a way of describing sentience......but I don't know.....
chownah
Yeah, that sounds about right...

I mean, vinnana can receive any number of definitions which aren't really seperable from sanna and vedana, so talking about vinnana in-and-of-itself requires talking about a certain arupa attainment, else speculation and reasoned argumentation, which turns out one of two ways.
SN 22.53 wrote:Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.
(A quote which, by the way, makes that arupa attainment seem quite odd...)

Anyway, to then tie a slew of soteriological claims to that specific exploration deviates from the Buddha's approach and furthermore is in danger of running afoul of warnings against ossifying meditational/contemplative experiences per the Brahmajala Sutta.

Even if consciousness could be aware of itself in a pristine state of integrated wholeness with the cosmos... even that would be with contact as condition...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
beeblebrox
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by beeblebrox »

daverupa wrote:
chownah wrote:daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
I'm pretty confused by that as well. As far as I can tell, it's being used by certain Mahayana folk to describe a quality of vinnana, such that not only does vinnana take an object, but vinnana also cognizes the presence of vinnana.
Hi Dave,

You don't think we can be aware of our consciousness?

Also, I don't think that vinnana actually "takes" an object... it only arises when there is a contact in between a sense and its object.

For example: mind + object (or say, an object called "consciousness," in the namarupa scheme of things) = consciousness of the mind that is in contact with the "consciousness."

Does that deviate from what the Buddha taught?

:anjali:
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