Recreational Use of Cannabis

[Viscid]

All things in the world, if looked with enough objective scrutiny, offer the potential for insight.. the state of the mind when intoxicated included.

This might be an interesting thread: is yoniso manasikara possible while intoxicated? I think it's a simple answer, but it might be worth an exploration since this comes up fairly regularly.

Thrilled to investigate this.

First, what do we mean by 'intoxicated?' My original post was referring mainly to psychedelics, particularly LSD. Generally people who are tripping on LSD don't even refer to the experience as being one of 'intoxication,' but let's say it is. If so, then not all intoxicated states are equal. Some, as with alcohol, are extremely dulling and would likely hinder one's ability to wisely reflect, and others may interfere less with the conditions appropriate for yoniso manasikara.

Whether one can reflect wisely while intoxicated is also dependent on their intentions in becoming intoxicated in the first place-- if they became intoxicated for the purpose of escape, it's unlikely they're going to utilize the intoxicated state as an object of reflection. In Western culture drugs are generally used to escape mundanity, so it's unlikely an intoxicated Westerner will be applying yoniso manasikara. In cultures with an established shamanic tradition, I argue, where ingestion of 'intoxicating' substances is a serious, sacred act, I have absolute conviction that yoniso manasikara is present.

having gaining genuine insight about the nature of consciousness or the world, your mind will remain its old suffering self.

This ignores conditionality altogether, doesn't it? "Remain its old", indeed...

If someone on LSD had 'insight' into impermanence-- if they, in the middle of the trip, realized 'nothing lasts!' I would say that such a thing is a genuine insight, a Buddhist insight, one that could potentially lead to dispassion-- but it's unlikely to have a profound long-term impact on the individual.. they will sober up and gradually forget about that insight. Having an established Vipassana practice however, allows the meditator to habitually reinforce dispassion toward the world.

[daverupa]

where ingestion of 'intoxicating' substances is a serious, sacred act, I have absolute conviction that yoniso manasikara is present.

You are going to have to argue that the asavas dealt with in MN 2 via yoniso manasikara are capable of being as skillfully dealt with 'intoxicated' vs. sober. Any particular state via any particular substance(s) can be plugged in for 'intoxicated', and the question posed.

We probably agree that alcohol, for example, is going to obstruct efforts to tolerate ill-spoken words, say, or to develop analysis-of-factors. I am under the strong impression that cannabis also, to one degree or another, impacts these efforts in an obstructive way. A negative seems to be clearly in view, and I think we are able to define 'intoxicants' generally as all psychoactive compounds, noting differences of degree.

As for benefits,

If someone on LSD had 'insight' into impermanence-- if they, in the middle of the trip, realized 'nothing lasts!' I would say that such a thing is a genuine insight, a Buddhist insight, one that could potentially lead to dispassion-- but it's unlikely to have a profound long-term impact on the individual.. they will sober up and gradually forget about that insight. Having an established Vipassana practice however, allows the meditator to habitually reinforce dispassion toward the world.

So the drug insight () likely has no lasting effect, only a dedicated practice does... where is the argument for recreational use alongside Dhamma practice?

[Viscid]

where is the argument for recreational use alongside Dhamma practice?

I wasn't intending to argue for recreational use alongside Dhamma practice, only that it is possible to have insight about the mind or the world while intoxicated. Recreation isn't conductive to Dhamma practice no matter what the source.

You are going to have to argue that the asavas dealt with in MN 2 via yoniso manasikara are capable of being as skillfully dealt with 'intoxicated' vs. sober. Any particular state via any particular substance(s) can be plugged in for 'intoxicated', and the question posed.

It'd be a difficult thing to argue, but I don't think it's impossible to develop the skill to 'deal with' asavas while under the influence of a substance. We cannot say that any substance definitely prohibits the application of such skill.

[daverupa]

You are going to have to argue that the asavas dealt with in MN 2 via yoniso manasikara are capable of being as skillfully dealt with 'intoxicated' vs. sober. Any particular state via any particular substance(s) can be plugged in for 'intoxicated', and the question posed.

It'd be a difficult thing to argue, but I don't think it's impossible to develop the skill to 'deal with' asavas while under the influence of a substance. We cannot say that any substance definitely prohibits the application of such skill.

I think the presence of medically-applied psychoactive compounds can be dealt with and worked around, but I do not think that recreationally-applied psychoactive compounds are able to improve upon the sober state in terms of Dhamma practice.

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EDIT: nested quote formatting

[Viscid]

I think the presence of medically-applied psychoactive compounds can be dealt with and worked around, but I do not think that recreationally-applied psychoactive compounds are able to improve upon the sober state in terms of Dhamma practice.

So we agree that the intent in taking these compounds determines whether their use is blameworthy. If one intends to use them for recreational purposes, then that person is blameworthy.. if the intent is to use them for strictly medical purposes, then they're not.

As for an improvement upon the sober state:
The only way we could justify that a substance was an improvement upon the sober state is by demonstrating that their effects (such as caffeine's ability to make one more attentive) are of benefit to practice. Marijuana, as far as I know, has no such beneficial effects. In fact, we can point to marijuana's induction of lethargy as being absolutely counter to the development of Buddhist practice. I don't think being periodically lethargic is, in itself, prohibitive to the possibility of gaining benefit from Buddhist practice (regular recreational marijuana users may still improve on their meditation and cultivation of virtue) but the recreational intent and lethargic effects of marijuana use is definitely an impedance to practice.

What I would ideally like to come up with is an alternative to the puritanical reaction one receives when discussing this sort of drug use within a religious context (I'm pretty sure having wine over dinner isn't going to cause one to be reborn in Hell.) Such an alternative response would come in the form "You should not take substance X because of effect Y which is of detriment to aspect Z in the pursuit of virtue or meditative skill."

[Ben]

What I would ideally like to come up with is an alternative to the puritanical reaction one receives when discussing this sort of drug use within a religious context (I'm pretty sure having wine over dinner isn't going to cause one to be reborn in Hell.) Such an alternative response would come in the form "You should not take substance X because of effect Y which is of detriment to aspect Z in the pursuit of virtue or meditative skill."

Which is, what I think, what people have been doing.

[Viscid]

Which is, what I think, what people have been doing.

Most of the responses seem to be founded on a fear of drug use (citing facts that they all invariably lead to psychiatric conditions or going to hell) rather than an analysis of the actual effects on the mind and how those effects actually interfere with practice.

and psychoactive substances which alter perception, mood, and cognition are wild cards that simply add variable complexity to what is already the delicate and difficult task of training citta.

Is probably the best idea in this thread, and I would be genuinely interested if we could manage to back this theory up with some sort of textual authority.

[Ben]

Which is, what I think, what people have been doing.

Most of the responses seem to be founded on a fear of drug use (citing facts that they all invariably lead to psychiatric conditions or going to hell) rather than analyzing actual effects on the mind and how those effects actually interfere with practice.

I don't see any fear of drug use.
What is apparent to me is that some people have direct experience with drug use, or have witnessed its effects on others.

and psychoactive substances which alter perception, mood, and cognition are wild cards that simply add variable complexity to what is already the delicate and difficult task of training citta.

Is probably the best idea in this thread, and I would be genuinely interested if we could manage to back this theory up with some sort of textual authority.

Yes, you may find a textual reference or two that will back up Daverupa's words - and I encourage you to look. But don't discount the experience of others or the documented adverse clinical and social effects of recreational drug use.
kind regards,

Ben

[kc2dpt]

What I would ideally like to come up with is an alternative to the puritanical reaction one receives when discussing this sort of drug use within a religious context (I'm pretty sure having wine over dinner isn't going to cause one to be reborn in Hell.) Such an alternative response would come in the form "You should not take substance X because of effect Y which is of detriment to aspect Z in the pursuit of virtue or meditative skill."

I abstain from drinking because I have a hard enough time maintaining right speech when sober. I don't need any further complications.

[Sanjay PS]

Life by itself is so intoxicating , the need of further intoxications , makes the problem at hand that much more difficult to handle.

There was a time once when i used to enjoy having the best of wine and drinks with friends , cannabis included . The happiness of getting a chivas and sharing a glass or two with my Father , i used to think of as a very refined living !

That era has long died , and when i look back , the feeling of happiness of having left it all behind is indescribable.........

sanjay

[manas]

I admit, I used to enjoy a joint or two...but still, the few times I came near to jhana (as I understand it), the peace and joy I felt in those meditations, was far better than ANY intoxicant ever gave me. In any case, I found that weed interfered with being fully emotionally available for those I love, and that was the main reason I abandoned it.
Manas