Faith-based against evidence-based

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Justsit
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Justsit »

Many people can learn from reading books, but since you apparently cannot, perhaps speaking to a living person is a better alternative for you. The author of the book I recommended is alive. Why don't you go talk to him? He has very practical advice. :smile:
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by chownah »

There is clearly too much stuff to read on just about any topic........seems you need to develop some discernment about how to find texts with a reasonable chance of being credible.......but of course that would not only require developing discernment but also in having faith that your mind is capable of developing and exercising discernment....and I am fully aware of your lack of faith in yourself.....probably a vestige of your catholic upbringing.

Isn't a lot of this thread about your inability to trust your own judgement.
chownah
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Matteo,
Matteo1972 wrote: According to my Zen master, understanding that there is no "I" is actually what enlightenment is about.
Yes, the understanding anatta (not-self) is said in the Suttas to be what sets Buddhism apart from other paths:
Though certain recluses and brahmins claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging…they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance…therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.
http://suttacentral.net/mn11/en/
As I see it, there is a problem with the way you have framed the topic:
Matteo1972 wrote: The fact that it is physically impossible to know what a man said more than 2500 years ago, when there were no cameras or taperecorders, did not seem to shaken his faith that what are the words attributed today to Buddha have any shred of evidence
You seem to be asking for historically-accurate evidence of exactly what the Buddha said 2500 years ago. Clearly this is impossible. Here, when people talk about "evidence based" they tend to mean based on their own experience, not on some sort of historical analysis.

And, of course, the Buddhist path does have the same problem as any other path. We have to take it on faith that Nibbana is possible. This is stated explicitly in the Suttas:
"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I'm afraid you have no choice but to take it on faith and continuing to practise.

For me the faith/confidence came from personal interactions with bhikkhus and lay people, observing their behaviour (calmness, happiness, and so on). There is advice in MN 95 Cankī Sutta about how to chose a teacher. Notably, it does not say "intellectually analyse his/her doctrine":
Here, Bhāradvāja, a bhikkhu may be living in dependence on some village or town. Then a householder or a householder’s son goes to him and investigates him in regard to three kinds of states: in regard to states based on greed, in regard to states based on hate, and in regard to states based on delusion: ‘Are there in this venerable one any states based on greed such that, with his mind obsessed by those states, while not knowing he might say, “I know,” or while not seeing he might say, “I see,” or he might urge others to act in a way that would lead to their harm and suffering for a long time?’ As he investigates him he comes to know: ‘There are no such states based on greed in this venerable one. The bodily behaviour and the verbal behaviour of this venerable one are not those of one affected by greed. And the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. This Dhamma cannot easily be taught by one affected by greed.’
...
http://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/
Now, if you read the Canki sutta, you'll also find statements about "truth":
If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My faith is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.
Until we have reached the goal, none of us can be sure of the "truth" and therefore should not be disparaging other possible spiritual paths, which may or may not lead to the "truth". However, as you have observed, we don't have time to practice all possible paths, so we do need to make a choice sooner rather than later.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4644
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

:goodpost:
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
Matteo1972
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

mikenz66 wrote: Until we have reached the goal, none of us can be sure of the "truth" and therefore should not be disparaging other possible spiritual paths, which may or may not lead to the "truth". However, as you have observed, we don't have time to practice all possible paths, so we do need to make a choice sooner rather than later.

:anjali:
Mike
I think your post makes good sense.

So far, I have found that it not impossible to get kensho with Zen.
I found tens of people who claimed who have reached kensho.
Still, for some reasons, many of them stop practicising Zen after they have reached this, which makes me wonder if this Kensho is really worth striving for.
Talking with an important monk who practiced Theravada for moree than 30 years under Ajhan Chah, I asked him about this and he claimed that Kensho is not really the true Enlightenment Buddha was talking about.
However, he did not disclose whether he had reached Enlightenmnent or not, so I wonder how he could know.
At the moment, I will stick with Rinzai Zen, but I will go to talk with some Buddhist monks in Thai for sure
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Alex123 »

chownah wrote:The only thing not based on faith is direct experience.
But doesn't the "direct experience" has to be interpreted to mean anything? The prism through which it is interpreted can be faith-based or based upon erroneous beliefs.

For example: we feel that earth stands still and we actually see that sun rises and sets. Our direct experience from the earth suggests that Earth doesn't move in space and that sun orbits the earth. Thus, more data is required to correctly interpret what one actually experiences. Unfortunately experience doesn't come with labels. We interpret it, and interpretation can be mistaken and/or incomplete.
Matteo1972
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

Alex123 wrote:For example: we feel that earth stands still and we actually see that sun rises and sets. Our direct experience from the earth suggests that Earth doesn't move in space and that sun orbits the earth. Thus, more data is required to correctly interpret what one actually experiences. Unfortunately experience doesn't come with labels. We interpret it, and interpretation can be mistaken and/or incomplete.
Err..
Not exactly
What we experience is that the Earth does not move in respect to us, which is true.
Whether Earth does move in respect to the Sun and fixed stars, this is a separate matter.
If is true that direct experience can be reinterpreted given direct evidence, but direct experience is the most reliable things we get.
My Zen Master uses to say that it is pointless to read books about beer, in order to know what beer is you have to drink it.
Same with Enlightenment, it is pointless to read books about Enlightenment, you have to experience it to know what it is about.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Alex123 »

Matteo1972 wrote:What we experience is that the Earth does not move in respect to us, which is true.
Whether Earth does move in respect to the Sun and fixed stars, this is a separate matter.
My example shows that experience might not be total and complete and interpretation of it can be wrong.
Matteo1972 wrote: If is true that direct experience can be reinterpreted given direct evidence,
Direct experience to be meaningful needs to be interpreted, and interpretation is based upon one's beliefs.
Matteo1972 wrote: My Zen Master uses to say that it is pointless to read books about beer, in order to know what beer is you have to drink it.
You need to know what beer is for you to recognize it as such when you experience drinking it.
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by lyndon taylor »

I wonder if the zen master would say the same thing about sampling cyanide, or LSD, or any other number of poisinous and ruinous drugs.

"This drink has the potential to addict you and completely ruin your life as well as kill you, I suggest you try it to see if you're one of the ones that will become addicted!!"
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Matteo1972
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

Alex123 wrote: My example shows that experience might not be total and complete and interpretation of it can be wrong.
Yes, and you need to have another experience to prove that the first one is wrong
Alex123 wrote: Direct experience to be meaningful needs to be interpreted, and interpretation is based upon one's beliefs.
And the beliefs need to be made based on experience
Alex123 wrote: You need to know what beer is for you to recognize it as such when you experience drinking it.
If you called beer as "coffee" would this change its taste?
Matteo1972
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

lyndon taylor wrote:I wonder if the zen master would say the same thing about sampling cyanide, or LSD, or any other number of poisinous and ruinous drugs.

"This drink has the potential to addict you and completely ruin your life as well as kill you, I suggest you try it to see if you're one of the ones that will become addicted!!"
Let` s just hope taht Enlightenment would taste better than cyanide
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Alex123 »

Matteo1972 wrote: Yes, and you need to have another experience to prove that the first one is wrong
And you might need a third experience to correct (or confirm) the 2nd... Ad infinitum.

Matteo1972 wrote:If you called beer as "coffee" would this change its taste?


If one doesn't know how these two (coffee & taste) taste, than they could be meaningless words that one manipulates.
Matteo1972
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

Alex123 wrote: And you might need a third experience to correct (or confirm) the 2nd... Ad infinitum.


Exactly
Alex123 wrote:If one doesn't know how these two (coffee & taste) taste, than they could be meaningless words that one manipulates.
Exactly.
Useless to talk about Enlightenment if we do not now how to experience
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by lyndon taylor »

Also useless to dream about enlightenment if we're not ready to take the many steps to get there..........
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Matteo1972
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

lyndon taylor wrote:Also useless to dream about enlightenment if we're not ready to take the many steps to get there..........
Which steps?
Theravada, Mahayana, Hindu, Zen or anything else?
Rinzai Zen or Soto?
Nichiren?
If Theravada..
Thai Theravada?
Sri Lanka?
Forest tradition?
And under which master?
Is one Master a good one or is he not?
In this very forum one famous master was deemed as under delusion by some.
How if your master is deluded?
You spend ten years of your life and then found out you are on the wrong track..

How do you know before?

How many years you have to try to get sure that at least you are not wasting your time..

Etc. etc.

And one last question.. how do we know there is an Enlightenment and there is a Buddha, in first place ?
Post Reply