Shut-down

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Shut-down

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:51 am

Well obviously you're using the n word on a buddhist forum, even if you're refering to what other people say, you're the one that doesn't seem to understand America.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Shut-down

Postby SDC » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:35 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Kim is spot on. And an example of that is the gun debate. I definitely don't want to have that debate, especialy in the context of DW. It's just to point out that you (the average american, I mean) are so deep in it that you don't realise that you're seen, by foreigners, as like being in a cult. And this applies to war, healthcare, education, barbarian capitalism, religious fundamentalism _ just to name the main ones.


So deep in it that we don't realize? Ha! Of course we realize. We also realize that both within and outside America people are judging us based on this amalgamated character based on media reports. I don't blame you, MP. How else is someone supposed to rationalize a group of people with such strikingly different ideologies? But I am telling you, this "average American" is almost as rare as a unicorn.

EDIT - Grammar
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:07 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Well obviously you're using the n word on a buddhist forum, even if you're refering to what other people say, you're the one that doesn't seem to understand America.
The "n word?" Saying "the n-word," as away of not saying "the n-word," simply makes the reader fill in the blank, which means that in the reader's head, thanks to your use of the locution "the n-word," is the dreaded word itself which is found so offensive. I wonder which is worse, saying the word itself, or saying something that requires the reader to fill in the blank in his or her head?

The use of the word "the n-word," which has a long and very difficult history, along with the adjective "uppity" (giving us an old racist locution) drives home the point about the racism that is fueling much of the present political turmoil this country is going through, which you seem to not at all understand.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:Sadly, what is being seen with this "shut down" are the paroxysms of racial fear as the country comes to grips with the inevitable browning of America. The "Tea Party," the "Birthers," those ossified old white male politicians who vowed to make Obama a one term president, those talking heads who insist that Obama does not share American values are all symptomatic of this fear -- a fear driven home by the fact that we now have an uppity black man White House. At great possibility of seriously damaging the US, the fearful ones strive for Obama's failure as if this will hold back the inevitable changes in culture this country is experiencing, moving from a white protestant majority to something quite different.
Let me respond to my own msg here, since it has generated some heat behind the curtain. My mistake here is in assuming that the offending locution -- "uppity black man" -- would be understood within the framework within which it was written. Am I saying that the POTUS is an "uppity black man?"

"Uppity black man" -- or the more graphic way of saying it -- is a well know American racist expression, and I used "uppity black man" directly in a context of those who would see the POTUS in those terms, the Tea Partiers, the Birthers, those who try to cast Obama as being "other," not truly American. I thought my intent in that usage here was clear, but apparently not.

Now, to be clear, I do not see Obama as a "uppity black man"; rather, he is a highly educated, disciplined, skilled man of quality and humor. For those who misunderstood and who disturbed by what I wrote, my apologies.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Shut-down

Postby chownah » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:54 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Kim is spot on. And an example of that is the gun debate. I definitely don't want to have that debate, especialy in the context of DW. It's just to point out that you (the average american, I mean) are so deep in it that you don't realise that you're seen, by foreigners, as like being in a cult. And this applies to war, healthcare, education, barbarian capitalism, religious fundamentalism _ just to name the main ones.

I am certainly not a cheerleader for amerika but just to show you how deluded the foreigners in your post are. The average amerikan does not own a gun, is not a religious fundamentalist, does not like war, likes healthcare and education, and knows so little about capitalism that they could not distinguish between its different flavors.

Your foreigner is clearly deluded.

The average amerikan is very nearly brain dead.....just like your foreigner.
chownah
Last edited by David N. Snyder on Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: inappropriate term removed, however it was made to describe how others might use that term, not this poster
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:11 am

chownah wrote: The average amerikan . . . knows so little about capitalism that they could not distinguish between its different flavors.
And many know next to nothing about the socialism that is also part of this country. Tea Partiers protesting socilaist government interference: ImageFor those of you who do not know, Medicare is the government run health insurance program for the elderly. The hardcore conservative ideologues want to kill Medicare.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Shut-down

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:16 am

Moderator note: the inappropriate term, even though it was used in the context of describing how others might want to use it, have all been removed. Let's put an end to that word by not using it. Thanks for your cooperation.
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Re: Shut-down

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:36 am

Thank you so much, David, sorry to be such a stick in the mud, but that was offensive, if not so much to me as to any other reader.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:50 am

BuddhaSoup wrote: I'm thinking of exporting my children to Australia or Ireland just so they don't have to live in a country where people carry guns, waiting for an opportunity to start shooting. Crazy, crazy, crazy country, we are, in some ways.
Crazy. Sure; however, spend some time reading the news out of Ireland and Australia.


The gun business in the US is a problem in part because of the fear that Obama, who is not one of us*, is going to take away our guns, and because of this better gun control laws are not going to get passed. And, again, what is driving this is racial fear, which gets played out in the most utterly stupid of ways:


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/fo ... 37793.html


*I suppose I had better add, just to forestall any further unfortunate misreading, that the "who is not one of us" is reflecting the thought of those who dislike/fear Obama and is not reflective of my feeling about him.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Shut-down

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:22 pm

Language taboos are fascinating.

I took your earlier point well, tilt, and sympathize with having to negotiate knee-jerk non-racism-as-fixation. Focusing on "don't say the bad words" is something of a focus on the bad words, disallowing them to fall neutrally into conversation - reading research literature on profanity would probably be difficult going for such folk.

:heart:

:focus:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Shut-down

Postby Anagarika » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:57 pm

Kim, thank you for the invite to Australia. Some of my ancestors were likely shipped there from Ireland and perhaps in a next life I'll get a chance to be born in Perth, for example, and visit Ajahn Brahm's Serpentine Wat on Friday night. :thumbsup: To be serious, I do hope my kids and I can visit your excellent country.

I've taken in some of the comments above about what's wrong with the US. I've lived for a time in Ireland while in school, and traveled a bit through Europe, and Canada.

Yes, there's a racial angst that permeates the country. We have, for example, in Chicago significant black-on-black crime which has caused some to want to arm themselves so that they can be "ready" the next time a gang member walks in a 7/11 with a gun. Fear of unknown risks drives people to do unusual things. These fears allow many in this country to project their fears on "others' in society that they feel are not like them.

My own sense, as well, is that Americans are less sophisticated about world issues generally, than Europeans. We have university degrees, but seem more ignorant, less emotionally sophisticated, less kind and less diplomatic. We are less well read, than, say my friends in Ireland who generally understood history, geography, poetry, art and we quite conversant in the pubs over many issues, while my American friends seemed very limited in their scope of interests. This is a horrible generalization, of course, as in the US you will find some of the most inspiring. compassionate, learned and gifted people on the planet....but as a general rule, we are a greedy, unsophisticated, and angry lot. And we have guns, which means that when someone or something pisses us off, Plan A seems to be to grab a gun and starting shooting.

As for our politics, watch Fox News for a week. Complete rubbish, driven by blood profits, and evangelizing for the bible toting, gun owning, angry, poorly educated Southerner , redneck, and conspiracy theorist that believes that Pres. Obama is actually the antichrist.

And we gave the world the blight that was Pres. GW Bush and Dick Cheney. For that alone we should be placed on UN sanctions. Two perfect examples of what is so wrong with this country.
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Re: Shut-down

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:19 pm

Gee guys, stereotype much?
Obama got about 39 - 40% of the white vote. About the same as other winning democratic candidates.
I was going to go into some of the other stereotypes, but you know what, to hell with it. Probably a losing battle. Stereotypes make people feel so smart, whatever their real intelligence, its probably useless to try to fight them.
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:45 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:Gee guys, stereotype much?
Obama got about 39 - 40% of the white vote. About the same as other winning democratic candidates.
I was going to go into some of the other stereotypes, but you know what, to hell with it. Probably a losing battle. Stereotypes make people feel so smart, whatever their real intelligence, its probably useless to try to fight them.
Well, this is not helpful. Basically you are saying: "You guys are poopy-pants, but I am not going to say who and why."

If I am stereotyping, please say so. I don't think I am, but I am willing to discuss it, and would like to deal with it, if I am.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:49 pm

daverupa wrote:Language taboos are fascinating.

I took your earlier point well, tilt, and sympathize with having to negotiate knee-jerk non-racism-as-fixation. Focusing on "don't say the bad words" is something of a focus on the bad words, disallowing them to fall neutrally into conversation - reading research literature on profanity would probably be difficult going for such folk.

:heart:

:focus:
Thanks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Shut-down

Postby Mr Man » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:03 pm

Dr. Cornel West on Racism, Inequality, & American Empire

Well worth a watch.
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Re: Shut-down

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:31 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:... My own sense, as well, is that Americans are less sophisticated about world issues generally, than Europeans.

This is something I've noticed from outside, too. I think one of the reasons is the perfectly reasonable point that the US was big enough and isolated enough to be nearly completely self-sufficient up until, say, Pearl Harbour. That has left you playing catch-up in engagement with the world at the same time the world is shrinking and US superpower-dom is dwindling - no wonder there is some resistance to it.

:namaste:
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Re: Shut-down

Postby Samma » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:03 pm

From what I understand this mainly comes down to Boehner.

A clear cr could pass the house, but boehner won't allow it because if he does the 80 or so far right members might challenge his speaker-ship.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n ... ed-of.html

So the far right is trying to extract concessions before the debt ceiling, at which time boehner will cave...or maybe not, a default, and probably a depression.
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:50 am

Samma wrote:From what I understand this mainly comes down to Boehner.
He is a gutless wonder.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Shut-down

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:36 am

Samma wrote:From what I understand this mainly comes down to Boehner.

A clear cr could pass the house, but boehner won't allow it because if he does the 80 or so far right members might challenge his speaker-ship.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n ... ed-of.html

So the far right is trying to extract concessions before the debt ceiling, at which time boehner will cave...or maybe not, a default, and probably a depression.

Yeah, those rich people on congress really fear the possibility of a depression because they will stop making so much money.....for awhile......

So, why do all of you fear the possibility of a depression?
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Re: Shut-down

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:41 am

Image
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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