Faith-based against evidence-based

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:26 pm

Matteo1972 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:I don't believe this. What is the name of this so-called Zen master? What is the name of his temple?


If you don` t believe, please feel free not to believe.


You didn't answer the question. Why don't you name this so-called Zen master and his temple? Is it because he doesn't exist?
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:38 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Matteo1972 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:I don't believe this. What is the name of this so-called Zen master? What is the name of his temple?


If you don` t believe, please feel free not to believe.


You didn't answer the question. Why don't you name this so-called Zen master and his temple? Is it because he doesn't exist?
This is well known in Zen circles. Probably the most famous Roshi was H. Yasutani: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakuun_Yasutani
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:41 pm

Yes, but he's dead, living back in the time when Imperial Japan was allied with axis powers. He died back in 1973 around the time Matteo was born, so he couldn't be Matteo's teacher.
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:53 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Yes, but he's dead, living back in the time when Imperial Japan was allied with axis powers. He died back in 1973 around the time Matteo was born, so he couldn't be Matteo's teacher.
Ooops. It is a little confusing trying to follow that thread. Obviously he is not taking about Yasutani, and it would be interesting, indeed, to see who it that supposedly has been making such comments.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby santa100 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:45 pm

Matteo1972 wrote:My current Master is very serious about Zen but eats meat, drinks wine and said that killing an human being is not necessarily bad.
In fact, he once said that wars are necessary
And he even said quite supporting things about Nazism..
Is he a good Master?
A bad Master?
I do not know, but apparently a lot of people get kensho with him.


and:
Matteo1972 wrote:he did not only "condone" the slaughter of the Jews, he in fact said Hitler was right.
He is the head of a pretty big temple, though


The highlighted part really worries me. This has become a very serious issue now. That Zen master, if he exists, must be identified and exposed. He is 100 times more dangerous than that Thai monk who committed sexual offenses. At least the Thai guy still preached the Buddha's messages of love and compassion. But for this case, imagine the horrible consequences of this Zen priest poisoning hundreds and possibly thousands of Buddhist followers with his pernicious wrong views?
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby appicchato » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:00 pm

Matteo1972 wrote:...I do not need to take 2 weeks time and go to Thailand...


You have that right Matteo...
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Dan74 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:12 pm

This thread begins to sound more and more like an elaborate exercise in trolling...

I am outta here, Matteo (shel?)
_/|\_
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:18 am

Dan74 wrote:This thread begins to sound more and more like an elaborate exercise in trolling...


That is what I thought all along. But it was nice of everyone to give him the benefit of doubt. There was a tremendous amount of patience supplied by the members here dealing with his trolling comments and questions and complete ignoring of good, quality responses by everyone.

By his own admission he was banned from many forums. This is probably the longest he has lasted in one forum. When he didn't get banned, he kept pushing the limits; now making derogatory claims against a Zen priest who he can't name even though "he runs a big temple and has kensho" (some Zen enlightenment insights).

[According to Matteo] no proof of Buddha's existence, no proof of enlightenment, about 1 + billion people accept Jesus Christ . . .
(argumentum e silentio, argumentum ad populum)

Matteo1972 wrote:
Justsit wrote:For about 20 year of my life I have been a devout Catholic Christian, later on I found out that all the teachings of the bible are essentially faith based
I also found out that one day I will die, and that no teachings alone will be likely to save me."

So it sounds like OP has realized that death is certain, the clock is ticking, and is looking for salvation. :shrug:


Nailed


Nailed? As in the cross, Jesus is the one for salvation? Notice he states "no teachings will save me" and that he has been looking for that completely perfect being for salvation. Hmm, sound familiar? That's what I thought he meant all along. I could be wrong, but the latest display of posts pushing the limits with making those comments about some alleged Zen priest seems to be his exit since he didn't get what he wanted.
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:54 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Dan74 wrote:This thread begins to sound more and more like an elaborate exercise in trolling...


That is what I thought all along. But it was nice of everyone to give him the benefit of doubt. There was a tremendous amount of patience supplied by the members here dealing with his trolling comments and questions and complete ignoring of good, quality responses by everyone.

By his own admission he was banned from many forums. This is probably the longest he has lasted in one forum. When he didn't get banned, he kept pushing the limits; now making derogatory claims against a Zen priest who he can't name even though "he runs a big temple and has kensho" (some Zen enlightenment insights).

[According to Matteo] no proof of Buddha's existence, no proof of enlightenment, about 1 + billion people accept Jesus Christ . . .
(argumentum e silentio, argumentum ad populum)

Matteo1972 wrote:
Justsit wrote:For about 20 year of my life I have been a devout Catholic Christian, later on I found out that all the teachings of the bible are essentially faith based
I also found out that one day I will die, and that no teachings alone will be likely to save me."

So it sounds like OP has realized that death is certain, the clock is ticking, and is looking for salvation. :shrug:


Nailed


Nailed? As in the cross, Jesus is the one for salvation? Notice he states "no teachings will save me" and that he has been looking for that completely perfect being for salvation. Hmm, sound familiar? That's what I thought he meant all along. I could be wrong, but the latest display of posts pushing the limits with making those comments about some alleged Zen priest seems to be his exit since he didn't get what he wanted.


Just to point out..
I have been a Christian for more than 20 years and looked for any shred f evidence that Christian faith has any kind of evidence whatsoever.
I talked with priests, people who supposedly saw miracles, this too much time, I went to visit many places.
I will not stop you if you want to convert to Christian, but I could find no "materialistic" evidence whatsoever that Jesus Christ has existed and that miracles are true.
Of course you can believe it out of faith, as you can believe out of faith that Buddha Enlightened under the Bodhi tree 2500 years ago.
But I believe the accusation that I am proselytizing for Christian faith is out the mark.
You can find better equipped priests everywhere

:)

As for the Zen temple I am visiting, since I would still like to go there sometimes and I do not want to get into problems, I can not say the name.
Please do not get offended.
If you do not want to believe what I said, please do not believe, but as someone pointed out here this Zen Master is not alone in his views.

As I can see I am rapidly approaching stage 5., I will now take a break from this thread.
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:13 am

Matteo1972 wrote:As for the Zen temple I am visiting, since I would still like to go there sometimes and I do not want to get into problems, I can not say the name.


How convenient.

Please do not get offended.


Why would I be offended? You are not accusing me of being Anti-Semitic. You are accusing some alleged Zen priest.

If you do not want to believe what I said, please do not believe, but as someone pointed out here this Zen Master is not alone in his views.


That was a long time ago during the time of Imperial Japan when they were with Nazi Germany as part of the Axis-powers, which of course does not justify it. I realize there is still some Antisemitism in the world just as there is still some racism, but call it a hunch or educated guess, but I don't think a Zen priest, monk or nun can have kensho or any other advanced attainment with that much ill-will toward any group.
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby SDC » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:24 am

SDC wrote:I think you're satisfied with your life, Matteo. Perhaps even really impressed with what you've accomplished. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad for you. But I think it causes you to take the dhamma as criticism instead of advice.


I'm reposting this statement I made earlier in the thread because I'm even more confident that it is the case. Perhaps you will respond this time.
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:24 am

Matteo1972 wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Matteo, I have no beef with Zen, seeing that I practice a Korean variety of it, but personally I would not study under a teacher who was positive about Nazism and condoned wars and killing.


Why not?

(he did not only "condone" the slaughter of the Jews, he in fact said Hitler was right.
He is the head of a pretty big temple, though)

:jumping:
Thanks for that Matteo1972!
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Doshin » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:21 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Dan74 wrote:This thread begins to sound more and more like an elaborate exercise in trolling...


That is what I thought all along. But it was nice of everyone to give him the benefit of doubt. There was a tremendous amount of patience supplied by the members here dealing with his trolling comments and questions and complete ignoring of good, quality responses by everyone.


I will just state, although the main dialogue, has been with/to Matteo, it does not rule out others from benefiting from the writings.

All posters being patient, and willing to try and re-try to formulate their advices, have my greatest admiration. I have read most of the thread, and it has given me food for (many) thoughts, and I sincerely appreciate that.

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:59 am

Dear Matteo,

I have been a converted Theravadan from June 1. Previously I was an agnostic non practicing Hindu. If you see my posts you will see I used to argue a lot when I first joined. Then I have not spoken a word.

There is no need to speak for me. I understand. What I understand, how and why I cannot describe (I am a math and accountancy teacher by profession so my working life revolves around "evidence" as you put it).

I am not enlightened yet but I am far more enlightened than I was on June 1. I can only adequately describe what Buddhism has taught me by borrowing a line from Bible "I was blind and now I can see".

I am adequately educated about Christianity and Hinduism. Buddhism is a whole different ball game. The man gets you to deconstruct your entire thought and reconstruct it from ground up. In simple terms you go from Avidya to Panna.

Those around me have noticed it also. I am doing better at work, my voice is calmer, I do not fret except in extreme cases.

I really wish I could somehow share in words how I am changing. Tragedy is I cannot. But I give you my word it is possible.

:namaste: Arijit
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