Buddha statues are not idols?..

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gavesako
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by gavesako »

See this relevant title:


Becoming the Buddha:
The Ritual of Image Consecration in Thailand
Donald K. Swearer



Becoming the Buddha is the first book-length study of a key ritual of Buddhist practice in Asia: the consecration of a Buddha image or "new Buddha," a ceremony by which the Buddha becomes present or alive. Through a richly detailed, accessible exploration of this ritual in northern Thailand, an exploration that stands apart from standard text-based or anthropological approaches, Donald Swearer makes a major contribution to our understanding of the Buddha image, its role in Buddhist devotional life, and its relationship to the veneration of Buddha relics. Blending ethnography, analysis, and Buddhist texts related to this mimetic reenactment of the night of the Buddha's enlightenment, he demonstrates that the image becomes the Buddha's surrogate by being invested with the Buddha's story and charged with the extraordinary power of Buddhahood. The process by which this transformation occurs through chant, sermon, meditation, and the presence of charismatic monks is at the heart of this book.

Known as "opening the eyes of the Buddha," image consecration traditions throughout Buddhist Asia share much in common. Within the cultural context of northern Thailand, Becoming the Buddha illuminates scriptural accounts of the making of the first Buddha image; looks at debates over the ritual's historical origin, at Buddhological insights achieved, and at the hermeneutics of absence and presence; and provides a thematic comparison of several Buddhist traditions.

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7753.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



:buddha1:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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DNS
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by DNS »

pilgrim wrote:But I really don't get this whole hang-up about idolatry. So what if people worship idols? This Abrahamaic instilled fear and superstition is so deeply ingrained in western culture.
Very true; it could be from the first two commandments of the 10 Commandments; both deal with having no other gods, not worshiping any other gods, not making any idols or graven images. And it is punishable by death if these commandments are broken. Many convert Buddhists, although not following their birth religions, have that so deeply ingrained that some are still reluctant to bow to statues, but as others have stated it is just a statue and symbol, nothing wrong with bowing to it.
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Kamran
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Kamran »

This is why I don't have an altar. It does not feel right to me, even though I understand that the bowing is for respect, I don't want it to seem that I worship the Buddha, or possibly even slip into that pattern of thought myself.
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Wesley1982
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Wesley1982 »

I don't know about you but that's one big Buddha.
Uilium
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Uilium »

What's the difference between honor and worship? :meditate:
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by dagon »

Wesley1982 wrote:How are Buddha statues not idols?..
If a Buddha statue to someone is an idol - then it is an idol to that person. That does not mean that the representation is wrong, just that the person seeing the image holds wrong views (in my opinion).

The Buddha taught us the path that could lead to the end of my suffering and even reduce my suffering in this life. Bowing down to a Buddha statue is a way of paying respect to the teacher that gives you the direction to the most valuable thing. In doing so it reminds me of the teacher of the Dhamma, the one that showed the way through his life. By remembrance of the teacher and Dhamma I remember that the power and responsibility to act on the Dhamma (taught by the Buddha) and move towards enlightenment is within me. To me this is the real power of the Buddha statue – unlocking what is with in me by using his direction. Bowing down with humility and respect should be the natural thing to do.

As for the “western view” I still remember my WTF moment when I first was dragged in to a church when I was about 7 and seeing “Christ nailed to the cross”.

Metta
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by chownah »

Uilium wrote:What's the difference between honor and worship? :meditate:
This is a very very good question and I hope that there is some discussion on this....for me they look a lot like two ends of a continuum of attitude.
chownah
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Kusala
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Kusala »

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Virgo
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Virgo »

Statues are just ruupa, elements, just like the body of a Buddha is. It is what they represent to us mentally that we pay respect to. The best way to pay respect, however, is to respect the Dhamma.

"He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma." - Vakkali Sutta

All the best,

Kevin
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by chownah »

What is an idol? Got to know what an idol is before you can say something is not.
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Sekha »

The best way to pay respect to the Buddha is to walk single-mindedly the path to the Deathless he has shown. The rest is just an emotional game with oneself. I have remarked that generally those who are the most attached to paying respect to statues are also those who slack off the most when it comes to actual practice.

We have evidence that representations of the Buddha as a person were not allowed in Buddhist iconography by the time of Asoka. This strongly indicates imo that Buddha statues were forbidden in the early days, and I disagree with the source quoted by Cooran. The reason of this interdiction is simple to understand: to prevent the quest of the Deathless from being replaced by rituals of worship. The reason why the rule may have disappeared from the Vinaya is also easy to understand.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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Jeffrey
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Jeffrey »

What evidence of prohibition do we have, Sekha?
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manas
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by manas »

Sekha wrote:The best way to pay respect to the Buddha is to walk single-mindedly the path to the Deathless he has shown.
Totally agree with you there, sekha. :thumbsup:

However:
Sekha wrote: I have remarked that generally those who are the most attached to paying respect to statues are also those who slack off the most when it comes to actual practice.
I'd be careful not to make generalizations like that one. How could you possibly know this? On a personal note I can recall that a number of months ago, when I was actually meditating every morning with a decent amount of effort, that after some of my more insightful meditations I wanted to physically bow down low, with my actual body, to the Buddha, out of gratitude...and there being no flesh-clad Buddha available, the Buddha-rupa had to do.

kind regards
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Dhammanando »

Jeffrey wrote:What evidence of prohibition do we have, Sekha?
I don’t think it’s terribly weighty. It seems there’s a rule against making images of the Buddha in one of the non-Theravādin recensions of the Vinaya (I forget which one). But since it’s not found in any other recension it’s doubtful whether it was present in the ur-Vinaya.

Then there’s the fact that the earliest artistic depictions of the Buddha’s life didn’t represent the man himself. But this can be (and has been) plausibly accounted for in a number of different theories, of which iconophobic interdiction is only one.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Jeffrey
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Re: Buddha statues are not idols?..

Post by Jeffrey »

This is my understanding as well, Ven Dhammanando, but I thought perhaps Sekha had something else in mind.

While on the topic, I wonder if there are commentarial traditions regarding the use of Buddha statues or paintings.
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