I think that "gilding the lily" expresses at least to some degree the sort of dismissive attitude that the word "hinayana" expresses. It's sort of judgmental. I doubt that there is any final answer to the Threadstarter's question... I mean who wants to be the judge? And why invite problematic generalisation? All we can say is whether Mahayana was helpful to us personally at one point or another, or not. Being landlocked in Theravada, it was occasionally helpful for me, but Theravada is still my "bread and butter".
Cheers, Thomas
Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Sort of judgmental is a lot better than grossly judgmental, as is the term hinayana, garbage vehicle.Pannapetar wrote:I think that "gilding the lily" expresses at least to some degree the sort of dismissive attitude that the word "hinayana" expresses. It's sort of judgmental.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I have no problem with " judgemental ". Its just another word for discrimination, discernment. It is an essential part of discovering The Dhamma.
Its not after all as if any one involved with this discussion is going to a clearly marked Zen Forum and telling them that their lives would be complete if they adopted just a wee pinch of the Theravada. Zen people have I assume exercised their judgement and reached a different conclusion to me. Personally I think we should be green or we should be yellow. Not some shade of greeny-yellowy.
Its not after all as if any one involved with this discussion is going to a clearly marked Zen Forum and telling them that their lives would be complete if they adopted just a wee pinch of the Theravada. Zen people have I assume exercised their judgement and reached a different conclusion to me. Personally I think we should be green or we should be yellow. Not some shade of greeny-yellowy.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Dear members,
Please keep in mind that although Dhamma Wheel is a forum for the discussion of the Theravada, it is a forum where all those interested in the Theravada, regardless of their affiliation, feel welcome and respected. I would like members to keep that in mind when responding to this and other threads. While we may have found our respective Theravadin practices to be the ekayano maggo for ourselves, be aware that many valued members are sincere practitioners of the Mahayana or Vajrayana. Its also been my observation that humilty is an artefact of genuine spiritual progress.
Metta
Ben
Please keep in mind that although Dhamma Wheel is a forum for the discussion of the Theravada, it is a forum where all those interested in the Theravada, regardless of their affiliation, feel welcome and respected. I would like members to keep that in mind when responding to this and other threads. While we may have found our respective Theravadin practices to be the ekayano maggo for ourselves, be aware that many valued members are sincere practitioners of the Mahayana or Vajrayana. Its also been my observation that humilty is an artefact of genuine spiritual progress.
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
It's kind of like saying, "yes, we may have some issues with sectarianism but our sectarianism is not as bad as theirs!"tiltbillings wrote:Sort of judgmental is a lot better than grossly judgmental, as is the term hinayana, garbage vehicle.Pannapetar wrote:I think that "gilding the lily" expresses at least to some degree the sort of dismissive attitude that the word "hinayana" expresses. It's sort of judgmental.
As for the term "hinyana", firstly in East Asia it means "smaller vehicle" and i not used to refer to Theravada (at least I've never heard it refer to Theravada) but rather to a practice that is limited to concern for oneself and used as a teaching tool. A good example in Zen is the following story:
There was an old woman in China who had supported a monk for over twenty years. She had built a little hut for him and fed him while he was meditating. Finally she wondered just what progress he had made in all this time.
To find out, she obtained the help of a girl rich in desire. “Go and embrace him,” she told her, “and then ask him suddenly: ‘What now?’”
The girl called upon the monk and without much ado caressed him, asking him what he was going to do about it.
“An old tree grows on a cold rock in winter,” replied the monk somewhat poetically. “Nowhere is there any warmth.”
The girl returned and related what he had said.
“To think I fed that fellow for twenty years!” exclaimed the old woman in anger. “He showed no consideration for your needs, no disposition to explain your condition. He need not have responded to passion, but at least he should have evidenced some compassion.”
She at once went to the hut of the monk and burned it down.
Sanghamitta,
Why do you say that? Do you feel that I am telling you that you need Mahayana?Its not after all as if any one involved with this discussion is going to a clearly marked Zen Forum and telling them that their lives would be complete if they adopted just a wee pinch of the Theravada.
My understanding is that this is a Dhammic Free For All subforum and practitioners of other schools are welcome to post their views. The purpose was not to proselytise but to ask of people's attitude to Mahayana and the role of Mahayana teachings in their practice, if any. The original reason was that I had noticed that the posts by the few Mahayana pracititioners here were mostly not followed up or rejected. So I wanted to find out what the attitude of the members was.
Personally I feel that it is much more about the practitioner than the particular school of Buddhism - there is plenty of wisdom and guidance in each and every one of them. It's like discussing the merits of French cuisine over Italian for a starving man. Just dig in, for crying out loud!
_/|\_
_/|\_
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Sorry, but could you explain what that was about? I don't get it. Was that monk being called selfish because he wouldn't have sex, or is is just supposed to be a funny story?Dan74 wrote: As for the term "hinyana", firstly in East Asia it means "smaller vehicle" and i not used to refer to Theravada (at least I've never heard it refer to Theravada) but rather to a practice that is limited to concern for oneself and used as a teaching tool. A good example in Zen is the following story:
...
Mike
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I am sorry but I dont accept your relativism at all. I am mindful of the fact that this is a Theravada forum which is open to Mahayana practitioners, and that is a fine thing. I am also mindful that good manners is a basic prerequisite in the conduct of students of the Dhamma. I am pleased for you that you benefit from whatever school of Buddhism you practice in. It would be dishonest of me however to suggest or imply that I think that all schools of Buddhism are equal, or lead to the same result. I have no quarrel with you, but having dipped into several schools of Buddhism for me the Theravada is the only needful way. I wish you well in your path. I dont see why this presents a problem. Your Mahayana practice presents no problem to me at all . Its simply not an issue..
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Sanghamitta, you certainly don't need to accept my "relativism"! I enjoy many of your contributions here and likewise wish you well in your practice.
Mike, my take on this story (and my initial reaction was similar to yours) is that the monk did not engage with the girl but just poetically rejected her advances. While for one of us that may sound like a fine achievement, for someone who has been cultivating intensively for a long time, it was poor. There is a Tibetan story for instance where a nun was attacked by a gang of rapists and used this opportunity to teach them dharma so by the end they had not only repented but became monks and her disciples. Similarly here, had the monk been a true master, he would have shown true loving kindness and compassion to the girl rather than simply saying that he had no sexual desire anymore. And of course to know exactly what he should've done, you need not only to have been there but to have been a master as well!
_/|\_
Mike, my take on this story (and my initial reaction was similar to yours) is that the monk did not engage with the girl but just poetically rejected her advances. While for one of us that may sound like a fine achievement, for someone who has been cultivating intensively for a long time, it was poor. There is a Tibetan story for instance where a nun was attacked by a gang of rapists and used this opportunity to teach them dharma so by the end they had not only repented but became monks and her disciples. Similarly here, had the monk been a true master, he would have shown true loving kindness and compassion to the girl rather than simply saying that he had no sexual desire anymore. And of course to know exactly what he should've done, you need not only to have been there but to have been a master as well!
_/|\_
_/|\_
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Actually, one could just consult the Vinaya which also exists in the Mahayana.Dan74 wrote:And of course to know exactly what he should've done, you need not only to have been there but to have been a master as well!
_/|\_
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
There's plenty of useful and useless stuff in both Theravada and Mahayana... and for different types of people too. I think it's better to examine specific views and teachings.Dan74 wrote:There's been a diversity of views here (as usual!). Some have said that Mahayana is irrelevant or superfluous at best. Some have posted various Mahayana materials as having been useful or inspirational.
So I am wondering if people tend to feel that posts from Mahayana practitioners are unwelcome intrusions (as was recently expressed) or simply irrelevant at best. I knows the admins intentions are to have an inclusive forum particularly in this subforum but I am asking how others feel.
I don't want to detract people from their practice by posting confusing information or even what is perceived as adhamma. So if sharing my perspective as a Mahayana practitioner does that, I'd rather cease and desist.
_/|\_
And although Mahayana and Theravada have formal, academic distinctions, in practice, they're honestly not very distinguishable.
With that said, I think there are lots of "Mahayana" practices (but in practice, Theravadins do many of these same things too) which have benefits. One thing that clearly stands out as useless, however, is tantra and traditional medicine. Superstitions are not useful.
A few other things I would also say are not useful for Theravadins: Guru veneration (in Tibetan Buddhism), proselytizing among certain Mahayana Buddhists, and of course, obviously, the "Hinayana" polemic when it is directed towards Theravadins (and there's no denying that sometimes, it is).
Zen stories like what he cited are meant to be difficult to understand, because they're supposed to develop discernment, intuition, wisdom, etc.., to be able to understand something beyond superficial logical and empirical analysis, to grasp an intuitive feeling of what's being expressed. Whereas being told, "This story means X," the only thing you're exercising are the faculties of logic and memory. Often, the meaning is also whimsical or comical and multi-layered, not straightforward.mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, but could you explain what that was about? I don't get it. Was that monk being called selfish because he wouldn't have sex, or is is just supposed to be a funny story?Dan74 wrote: As for the term "hinyana", firstly in East Asia it means "smaller vehicle" and i not used to refer to Theravada (at least I've never heard it refer to Theravada) but rather to a practice that is limited to concern for oneself and used as a teaching tool. A good example in Zen is the following story:
...
Mike
But anyway, about the story: no, it's not about the sex, but about the monk's whole attitude.
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Well, OK, perhaps he could have said something different, but you seemed to be bringing it up as some sort of thing that would be revelatory news to a Theravada monk. Which is, frankly, absurd and insulting.Dan74 wrote:S
Mike, my take on this story (and my initial reaction was similar to yours) is that the monk did not engage with the girl but just poetically rejected her advances. While for one of us that may sound like a fine achievement, for someone who has been cultivating intensively for a long time, it was poor. ...
Have you spent time with Theravada monks? I've personally witnessed them dealing with women at least as annoying than the one in the story, with stunning calm and compassion.
Metta
Mike
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
When he cited that story, he used it as an example of Hinayana and said that Hinayana doesn't refer to Theravada, so your taking offense is unnecessary.mikenz66 wrote: Well, OK, perhaps he could have said something different, but you seemed to be bringing it up as some sort of thing that would be revelatory news to a Theravada monk. Which is, frankly, absurd and insulting.
Have you spent time with Theravada monks? I've personally witnessed them dealing with women at least as annoying than the one in the story, with stunning calm and compassion.
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I'm not necessarily taking offence, but the title of the thread is:Individual wrote:mikenz66 wrote: When he cited that story, he used it as an example of Hinayana and said that Hinayana doesn't refer to Theravada, so your taking offense is unnecessary.
"Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?"
OK, so it's about Mahayana monks with a hinayana attitude then... Fine... I'll make sure I avoid those ones...
Mike
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I can get annoyed when people seem to totally lose track of the train of thought in a reasonably short conversation. That is, it's as if they're intentionally faking stupidity simply to win a debate by belittling their opponent. Because there's no way a person's short-term memory could be so bad that what was said only a few moments ago (or one page ago) could somehow be forgotten so quickly. Or, in the case of online discussions, even if you have a long thread of multiple pages, you can always go back and look to see what the train of thought was. Faking forgetfulness of the train of thought of an opponent's words and then acting as if the other party is just strangely pulling out a wacky, unrelated idea, derailing the conversation, is insulting, unnecessary, and troublesome. Even assuming it was completely irrelevant, are you not merely fueling it by acknowledging it?mikenz66 wrote:I'm not necessarily taking offence, but the title of the thread is:Individual wrote:mikenz66 wrote: When he cited that story, he used it as an example of Hinayana and said that Hinayana doesn't refer to Theravada, so your taking offense is unnecessary.
"Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?"
OK, so it's about Mahayana monks with a hinayana attitude then... Fine... I'll make sure I avoid those ones...
With that said: I remember the train of thought here and I think Dan's remarks were both insightful and relevant. The term Hinayana was brought up, he stated Hinayana doesn't apply to Theravada, and brought up a nice example. It's not difficult to see how that sort of statement might relate to a discussion such as this, although yes, a lengthy discussion on it would be a distraction from the topic at hand.
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I think of Hinayana as a stage in practice.
Most of us start on this path seeking to better our lives. But eventually it shifts to something deeper and more worthwhile, hopefully. If not, then it is a Hinayana attitude. Not bad at all, just still anchored in concern for oneself.
This is where I still am, mostly.
On the other hand, my teacher once said that Ajahn Brahm is probably the greatest Bodhisattva monastic in the country. So it's not about Theravada vs Mahayana at all.
It seems that we fall into this us versus them mentality very easily. Perhaps it is because on the web it can be tricky to judge one another's motives. I try to approach these exchanges as a privilege to hear from fellow practitioners and share some thoughts. I've said it before and I will say it again - I have no interest in beating the mahayana drum or promote some sense of superiority (which I don't even believe in). I am hear to learn and to share what may be useful to others.
_/|\_
Most of us start on this path seeking to better our lives. But eventually it shifts to something deeper and more worthwhile, hopefully. If not, then it is a Hinayana attitude. Not bad at all, just still anchored in concern for oneself.
This is where I still am, mostly.
On the other hand, my teacher once said that Ajahn Brahm is probably the greatest Bodhisattva monastic in the country. So it's not about Theravada vs Mahayana at all.
It seems that we fall into this us versus them mentality very easily. Perhaps it is because on the web it can be tricky to judge one another's motives. I try to approach these exchanges as a privilege to hear from fellow practitioners and share some thoughts. I've said it before and I will say it again - I have no interest in beating the mahayana drum or promote some sense of superiority (which I don't even believe in). I am hear to learn and to share what may be useful to others.
_/|\_
_/|\_