Two kinds of contact

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Two kinds of contact

Postby chownah » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:10 pm

In DN15
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It talks about designation contact and resistance contact.

What are they?
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:44 pm

I think it's parsing internal and external sense bases: internal is involved with designation-contact, external with resistance-contact. Note that, in the formulation in that sutta, the dependent co-origination chain goes:

vinnana <--> namarupa --> contact --> feeling

The six sense bases aren't especially set out for notice between namarupa and contact, so instead we have internal and external wrapped up in two sorts of contact.

---

Maybe, though, it's designation-contact for mental phenomena and resistance-contact for physical phenomena, but since namarupa isn't mental-physical I think this must be mistaken.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby santa100 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:49 pm

Designation contact (adhivacana samphassa): conceptual impressions through the mind-door
Resistance contact (patigha samphassa): sense impressions through the other five doors: eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.
~~ http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/phassa.htm ~~
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby chownah » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:58 pm

I'm wondering if when consciousness is conjoined with discernment if this is associated with designation contact and when consciousness is conjoined with perception and feeling if this is associated with resistance contact.
Also, in MN43 it talks about the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties......is the term used for intellect-consciousness similar to the term for designation contact?...
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby santa100 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:33 pm

chownah wrote:I'm wondering if when consciousness is conjoined with discernment if this is associated with designation contact and when consciousness is conjoined with perception and feeling if this is associated with resistance contact.


According to Ven. Bodhi's note on MN 43's "Wisdom and Consciousness are conjoined, not disjoined": "This statement refers to the wisdom and consciousness on the occasions of both insight and the supramundane path", while the 2 kinds of contacts (designation and impact) present in any regular circumstance where any of the 6-sense doors, the 6-sense objects, and the 6-sense consciousnesses come together.
Also, in MN43 it talks about the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties......is the term used for intellect-consciousness similar to the term for designation contact?

Similarly, the Purified Mind Consciousness(ParisuddhaManoVinnana) divorced from the five[sense] faculties, is the consciousness of the Fourth Jhana, while designation contact(adhivacana samphassa) can occur any time the mind-door, the concept/idea, and the mind-consciousness come together..
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby daverupa » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:02 pm

santa100 wrote:According to Ven. Bodhi's note... the 2 kinds of contacts (designation and impact) present in any regular circumstance where any of the 6-sense doors, the 6-sense objects, and the 6-sense consciousnesses come together.


This means both designation-c and resistance-c obtain for the six senses. I am therefore confused when, later, you say

... designation contact(adhivacana samphassa) can occur any time the mind-door, the concept/idea, and the mind-consciousness come together..


since it is the case that designation-c can occur at any sense-door, not just the mind-door.

(As for a purified mind-conciousness, MN 43 seems to say it's related to arupa attainments, not jhanas, but this may be going off on a tangent:

MN 43 wrote:"Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'


)
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby santa100 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:48 pm

daverupa wrote:This means both designation-c and resistance-c obtain for the six senses. I am therefore confused when, later, you say


I mentioned palikanon.com source, which shows the separation where designation-c is for mind-door/mind-object/mind-consciousness, whereas resistance-c is for eye-door/eye-object/eye-consciousness, ear-door/ear-object/ear-consciousness, nose, tongue, and body-door. So when I mentioned the 6-sense doors, it was meant to be seen together with the 2 kinds of contact.

daverupa wrote:As for a purified mind-conciousness, MN 43 seems to say it's related to arupa attainments, not jhanas

No, according to Ven. Bodhi:
Purified mind consciousness(ParisuddhaManoVinnana) released from the five faculties: the consciousness of the fourth jhana. It can know the immaterial attainments insofar as one established in the 4th jhana is capable of reaching them
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby Sylvester » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:52 am

santa100 wrote:Designation contact (adhivacana samphassa): conceptual impressions through the mind-door
Resistance contact (patigha samphassa): sense impressions through the other five doors: eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.
~~ http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/phassa.htm ~~



I think this definition is certainly legitimate by the Abhidhamma yardstick, but that leads to the next question - is the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma definition congruent with the sutta/sutra presentations? This evolution is traceable to a development in the Sarvastivadin canon which completely changed the early Buddhist usage of nāmarūpa from "name & appearance/form" to "immaterial & material" or "mentality & materiality". Some Agama sources for this evolved meaning cited here - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18651#p262068.

Whether these are textual transmission errors or deliberate reworkings of the Agama sutras, is anybody's guess. Since there are no suttas in the Pali canon that show this evolved meaning of nāmarūpa, I think it's reasonable to surmise that the Theravada Abhidhamma borrowed this classification from the Sarvas.

So, going by the Comy application of the Abhidhamma definitions of nāmarūpa, you have BB's early translation of DN 15 that conforms to that model - http://www.bps.lk/olib/mi/mi018-p.html.

It helps if you have his more complete work on DN 15 - http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=kMD ... hi&f=false.

See section 20 of the translation of the accompanying Commentary for how these meanings came to be applied, especially the Abhidhammic definition of nāma = feeling, perception, formations and consciousness. However, consciousness has never been part of the nāma definition in the Pali suttas...

You'll have to decide whether this passage from DN 15 means what it literally says, or if one should employ the convoluted Comy explanation -

Yehi ānanda ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi rūpakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho nāmakāye paṭighasamphasso paññāyethā?"Ti.

If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the body/collection of rūpa were all absent, would impingement-contact be discerned in the body/collection of nāma?


I took BB's translation but rendered the 2 underlined compounds as genitive tappurisas, instead of the kammadhāraya as he has done.
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby Sylvester » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:13 am

daverupa wrote:
(As for a purified mind-conciousness, MN 43 seems to say it's related to arupa attainments, not jhanas, but this may be going off on a tangent:

MN 43 wrote:"Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'


)


Compare how BB renders the instrumental -ena in parisuddhena manoviññāṇena against Ven T's translation. BB's reference puts the base at something other than the formless attainments. See the example in Warder p.45 regarding that idiomatic phrase "he experiences through his body" which in Upanisadic times would have seen the "body" represented by the word ātman, in one of its 3 distinct senses. I suppose the Sautrantikas read this passage in the same manner as Ven T, but they committed a gross logical fallacy in the process...
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby daverupa » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:32 am

Do you suggest e.g.

"With mind-consciousness released from the five faculties through/via purification..."

?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby Sylvester » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:41 am

daverupa wrote:Do you suggest e.g.

"With mind-consciousness released from the five faculties through/via purification..."

?



Hi dave

Sorry if I was not clear; I was suggesting that we contrast the MLDB rendition -

...what can be known by purified mind-consciousness...


versus Ven T's -

... what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness


Your suggestion doesn't really work, based on the syntax -

Nissaṭṭhena hāvuso pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena kiṃ neyya"nti?


All the instrumentals form a single cluster to convey one linguistic element revolving around the substantive noun viññāṇa, while the ablative plurals of pañca indriya create another element. The "subject" (as it were) is in the interrogative pronoun kiṃ.

Your suggestion would create a new substantive out of parisuddha, when it is merely an adjective standing in a junction to viññāṇa. Methinks the syntax will not permit this, as that entails 2 linguistic units, while the Pali has only one.

Incidentally, when BB translates nissaṭṭha as "released", it is not the "released" in the standard sense of liberated or vimutta. Nissaṭṭha is the past participle of nissajjati, defined as -

Nissajjati [nis+sajjati, sṛj. See also nisajjeti] to let loose, give up, hand over, give, pour out Vin ii.188; ger. nissajja [Sk. niḥsṛjya] Sn 839 (v. l. nisajja); Nd1189 (id.); SnA 545. pp. nisaṭṭha & nissaṭṭha (q. v.). Cp. nissaggiya & paṭi˚.

PED


The English translation is a good idiomatic compromise to handle the fact that the 5 Faculties are inflected in the ablative, but to still relate such a consciousness to the attainments.
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby chownah » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:50 am

To go a bit farther,
DN15 uses designating and resistance contact in asking three questions which I will number:

1). If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity) were all absent, would designation-contact with regard to the form-group (the physical properties) be discerned?"

2). "If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group were all absent, would resistance-contact with regard to the name-group be discerned?"

3). "If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of name-group and form-group were all absent, would designation-contact or resistance-contact be discerned?"

.....and then it makes a sort of conclusion:

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for contact, i.e., name-and-form.

Is 1) asking "if we could not describe mental activity could we then discern physical properties?"...... And similarly for 2) and 3)?

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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby daverupa » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:17 am

chownah wrote:Is 1) asking "if we could not describe mental activity could we then discern physical properties?"...... And similarly for 2) and 3)?


That seems incorrect, as I understand it. The form-group is just any of the six external sense bases, and the name-group is just any of the six internal sense bases. Put another way, we can write

rupa-nama-vinnana

for any given sense base. Rupa overlaps the mental/physical dichotomy, originally, I think.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:33 am

Hi chownah

What about No.4? :stirthepot:

Ven T's translation of DN 15 missed that out -

‘Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmarūpassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho phasso paññāyethā’’ti? ‘‘No hetaṃ, bhante’’

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of name and form were all absent, would contact be discerned?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

- using BB's translation but rendering nāmarūpa as name & form


I think the answer to your questions is furnished in the following section that summarises the preceding sections on rebirth, cognition and the cognitive sequel, all of which are manifested by consciousness with name-&-form -

‘‘‘Nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇa’nti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṃ. Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, nāmarūpe patiṭṭhaṃ na labhissatha, api nu kho āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ dukkhasamudayasambhavo [jātijarāmaraṇadukkhasamudayasambhavo (sī. syā. pī.)] paññāyethā’’ti? ‘‘No hetaṃ, bhante’’. ‘‘Tasmātihānanda, eseva hetu etaṃ nidānaṃ esa samudayo esa paccayo viññāṇassa yadidaṃ nāmarūpaṃ. Ettāvatā kho, ānanda, jāyetha vā jīyetha [jiyyetha (ka.)] vā mīyetha [miyyetha (ka.)] vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā. Ettāvatā adhivacanapatho, ettāvatā niruttipatho, ettāvatā paññattipatho, ettāvatā paññāvacaraṃ, ettāvatā vaṭṭaṃ vattati itthattaṃ paññāpanāya yadidaṃ nāmarūpaṃ saha viññāṇena aññamaññapaccayatā pavattati.

“It was said: ’With consciousness as condition there is name & form.’

“It was said: ’With name & form as condition there is consciousness.’ How that is so, Ananda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to gain a footing in name & form, would an origination of the mass of suffering—of future birth, aging, and death—be discerned?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“Therefore, Ananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely, name & form.

“It is to this extent, Ananda, that one can be born, age, and die, pass away and re-arise, to this extent that there is a pathway for designation, to this extent that there is a pathway for language, to this extent that there is a pathway for description, to this extent that there is a sphere for wisdom, to this extent that the round turns for describing this state of being, that is, when there is name & form together with consciousness.


The phrase "to this extant" (ettāvatā) delineates what consciousness with name-&-form are capable of. But as the subsequent section shows, wisdom is not guaranteed by this vortex. It depends on how one proceeds on the "pathway of description/delineation" (paññattipatha). Trip off the knife's edge and you fall into attapaññatti - the delineation of "Self" described in the section -

Attapaññatti

117. ‘‘Kittāvatā ca, ānanda, attānaṃ paññapento paññapeti? Rūpiṃ vā hi, ānanda, parittaṃ attānaṃ paññapento paññapeti – ‘‘rūpī me paritto attā’’ti. Rūpiṃ vā hi , ānanda, anantaṃ attānaṃ paññapento paññapeti – ‘rūpī me ananto attā’ti. Arūpiṃ vā hi, ānanda, parittaṃ attānaṃ paññapento paññapeti – ‘arūpī me paritto attā’ti. Arūpiṃ vā hi, ānanda, anantaṃ attānaṃ paññapento paññapeti – ‘arūpī me ananto attā’ti.


Descriptions of Self

23. “In what ways, Ananda, does one describing self describe it? Describing self as having material form and as limited, one describes it thus: ’My self has material form and is limited.’ Or describing self as having material form and as infinite, one describes it thus: ’My self has material form and is infinite.’ Or describing self as immaterial and limited, one describes it thus: ’My self is immaterial and limited.’ Or describing self as immaterial and infinite, one describes it thus: ’My self is immaterial and infinite.’


Try to pay attention to the grammatical form used in the Buddha's question to Ven Ananda, eg from above -

‘Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmarūpassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho phasso paññāyethā’’ti?


This is the existential locative absolute I have mentioned in the past. It has absolutely no connotation of contemporaneity, unlike locative absolutes formed from present participles of action verbs. Asati is from the a+sati, where sati = locative of santo, santo = present participle of atthi (to be/it exists). What is does is to demonstrate the role of nāmarūpa as the necessary condition for contact, that's all. With this grammatical construction, the "condition" and the "effect" can be separated by any amount of time, including lifetimes.

Try not to use these suttas in an Abhidhammic enterprise to describe EVERYTHING. They are probably intended to be to the point about contrasting the arising of the conditions for Suffering versus the non-arising for the conditions for Suffering.
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby santa100 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:51 am

chownah wrote: number 1). If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity) were all absent, would designation-contact with regard to the form-group (the physical properties) be discerned?"

"No, lord."


When the necessary condition for designation-contact is absence (the absence of the name-group), then designation-contact can't be discerned out of a different condition (the form-group). Vice versa for 2), and then combined logic for 3)..
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby daverupa » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:51 am

Thank you for these notes, Sylvester.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two kinds of contact

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:16 am

:anjali:
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