SN 1.2 Deliverance

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SN 1.2 Deliverance

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:38 am

SN 1.2 Deliverance
Translated by Bhikkhu Ñanananda


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #passage-2

Near Saavatthi. Now a certain deity, when the night was far spent, came into the presence of the Exalted One, and coming, saluted him and stood at one side. So standing he spake thus to the Exalted One:

"Do you, dear sir, know for them that live, deliverance, freedom, detachment?"[7]

"I do know, O friend, for them that live deliverance, freedom, detachment."

"In what manner and how, dear sir, do you know for them that live deliverance, freedom, detachment?"

When delight and existence[8] are exhausted
When perception and consciousness[9] are both destroyed
When feelings cease and are appeased[10] — thus, O friend,
Do I know for them that live
Deliverance, freedom, detachment.

Notes

[7] nimokkha.m pamokkha.m viveka.m': These three terms are explained in the comm.. (S.A.) in two ways. Firstly, they are said to refer to the Path, the Fruit and Nibbaana respectively. Secondly, as an alternative interpretation, all of them are treated as synonyms for Nibbaana. It is only the latter interpretation that appears to be valid according to the context.

[8] Delight (nandi) is said to be the root of existence (bhava), and hence the fading away of the former results in the cessation of the latter. It amounts to a realization, here and now, of the fact that one has crossed over all forms of existence (bhavassa paaraguu — Dhp. V. 348). This experience that the consciousness is not established anywhere — neither here (neva idha), nor beyond (na hura.m) nor in between (na ubhayamantare) — Ud. 81) — provides for the arahant, certitude often expressed in the words: 'Extinct is birth, lived is the holy life, done is the task, and there is nothing beyond this for (a designation of) the conditions of this existence.'

[9] This refers to the experience of the cessation of consciousness (vi~n~naa.nanirodha — D. I. 213) with the removal of its support name-and-form. The experience is described in the suttas as a very unusual kind of 'jhaana' or 'samaadhi,' since it does not partake of any perceptual data. (A. IV. 427, V. 7, 8, 318, 319, 321, 324f, 353ff.)

[10] The cessation and appeasement of feelings, is yet another aspect of this experience. Thereby the Arahant realizes the extinction of all suffering mental as well as physical (see Sakaiika S: S I, 27), which in effect is the bliss of Nibbaana as the deliverance from all Sa.msaaric suffering. What is most significant about this paradoxical jhaana is that, despite the extinction of all what constitutes our waking experience, the arahant is still said to be mindful and aware. It is sometimes referred to as 'the sphere' (aayatana) in which the six sense-spheres have totally ceased. (See M. III. 218; S. IV. 98).
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Re: SN 1.2 Deliverance

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:04 am

SN 1.2 Emancipation
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/sn1.2/en/

At Savatthi. Then, when the night had advanced, a certain devata of stunning beauty, illuminating the entire Jeta’s Grove, approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, stood to one side, and said to him:

“Do you know, dear sir, emancipation, release, seclusion for beings?” [6]

“I know, friend, emancipation, release, seclusion for beings.”

“But in what way, dear sir, do you know emancipation, release, seclusion for beings?”

The Blessed One:

    “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, [7]
    By the extinction of perception and consciousness,
    By the cessation and appeasement of feelings:
    It is thus, friend, that I know for beings—
    Emancipation, release, seclusion.” [8]

Notes

[6] Sattānaṃ nimokkhaṃ pamokkhaṃ vivekaṃ.
Spk: “Emancipation (nimokkha) is the path, for beings are emancipated from the bondage of defilements by the path; release (pamokkha) is the fruit, for at the moment of the fruit beings have been released from the bondage of defilements; seclusion (viveka) is Nibbāna, for when they attain Nibbāna beings are separated from all suffering. Or, alternatively, all three are designations for Nibbāna: for having attained Nibbāna, beings are emancipated, released, separated from all suffering.”
BB: The actual wording of the verse seems to confirm the second alternative.

[7] BB: Spk glosses: Nandībhavaparikkhayā ti nandīmūlakassa kammabhavassa parikkhayena; nandiyā ca bhavassa cā ti pi vaṭṭati; “By delight-existence-destruction: by the utter destruction of kamma-process existence rooted in delight; it is also proper to understand it as meaning ‘(the destruction) of delight and of existence.’” It would be more plausible, however, to construe this three-term tappurisa as an inverted compound placed in irregular order probably owing to the exigencies of verse. This interpretation is confirmed by Pj II 469,14 and Dhp-a IV 192,7-8 in their gloss on the related bahubbīhi compound nandībhavaparikkhīṇaṃ as tīsu bhavesu parikkhīṇataṇhaṃ; “one who has destroyed craving for the three realms of existence.” See too below v. 300c and n. 165.

[8] In this verse only the first two pādas conform to a recognizable metre (Vatta), which indicates that the verse is corrupt. Ee2 amends the third pāda and adds a line found only in a Lanna ms to arrive at a novel reading: vedanānaṃ nirodhā ca/ upasanto carissatī ti. It then treats the last three pādas of the other editions as prose. This, however, alters the meaning of the verse in such a way that it no longer directly answers the question.
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Re: SN 1.2 Deliverance

Postby Samma » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:24 pm

Following DO I suppose it goes like this:
perceptoin/conscousness destroyed (?)->
feelings cease and appeased (?)->
so delight (clinging) ceases->
existence (becoming) exhaused

So starting at the beginning, what does it mean for consciousness/perception to be destroyed?
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Re: SN 1.2 Deliverance

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:46 pm

Hi Samma,

These verses always seem hard to interpret. Note that Ven Nananada, in his footnote [9] interprets
When perception and consciousness[9] are both destroyed

as being a particular meditative attainment, and gives references to some related sutta pasages.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 1.2 Deliverance

Postby Samma » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:03 pm

Well nirodha samaapatti is cessation of feeling and perception. That seems to require anagami.
While this is cease perception and consciousness. So I guess this is something like the arahant version of nirodha samaapatti...

Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.

The very ignorance regarding the relationship between name-and-form and consciousness - is avijja. And what accounts for the continuity of this relationship - is sa?khara. It is because of these preparations that the vortical interplay between consciousness and name-and-form is kept going.
(K. Nananada)
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... tilled.htm
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