Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance and Wi

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:00 pm

Hi PP,
purple planet wrote:sorry cant say anything cause my post well get deleted and i will get my number 4 warning - how much warnings are there ?
all this politcal issues are strongly connected to islam - how can i talk about this issues without talking about islam ? - i cant
( by the way im no bush fan just saying obama is worse)

Actually, the TOS say:
* Badmouthing of other spiritual paths is not allowed.

So it would be against the TOS to argue, for example, that Islam is inherently evil. It is not be against the TOS to state opinions and worries about political and military conflicts.

The TOS also does not allow:
meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about discussion),

and you are currently violating that portion of the TOS.

:anjali:
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Justsit » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:04 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:My information of american politics comes mainly from the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.


Well, that's a problem right there. Not exactly a trusted source.


[quote="Modus.Ponens}...fact that Obama cannot "sell" the idea that people who are poor have the right to not die because of lack of health treatment, is absolutely insane! Many rich people paying less percentage of taxes than poor people is absolutely insane! If he can't argue the obvious it's either because he is incompetent or because he doesn't want to. Either way, he's a bad president.[/quote]

Wrong! Of course those things are insane. But trying to "sell" those ideas is futile. The people who have the big money and those who run the financial institutions do not care about the poor. Obama could talk until he's blue in the face and nothing would change. He is constrained by the realities of how power is wielded in America. And perhaps you might not be aware of this, but POTUS is not the one pulling the biggest strings.
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:13 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Well I must admit I'm not very well informed on the subject, so my opinion has limited value. My information of american politics comes mainly from the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
The Daily Show. Good gawd!! Great, biting satire and commentary at times, but hardly a basis for a careful, considered criticism.


However, the fact that Obama cannot "sell" the idea that people who are poor have the right to not die because of lack of health treatment, is absolutely insane! Many rich people paying less percentage of taxes than poor people is absolutely insane! If he can't argue the obvious it's either because he is incompetent or because he doesn't want to. Either way, he's a bad president.
Ignorance of what the situation actually is. He is not a bad president. He is a president that is in a bad situation, much of which is out of his control, much of which has to do with forces that have been at play for some long while. He is a president that has moved things forward, while the atavistic forces are pushing back against that changes that are to them extremely fearsome. The USA is changing, it is browning, it is becoming more tolerant, but there are those who find this frightening, there are those who will exploit this fear for power and money. What we are seeing with America is a fascinating struggle as it pushes forward. Obama is not a bad president. While he is far from perfect, his pushing the social agenda of health care and equality, and his twice being elected, point to, for all the turmoil and struggle, something good going on here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:42 pm

I have to agree with Tilt. Obama, considering the hysterical opposition and criminal economic vandalism by the tea-bag party, has done very well. I think history will judge Obama as one of the best presidents of the US.
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby dagon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:55 pm

Ben wrote:I have to agree with Tilt. Obama, considering the hysterical opposition and criminal economic vandalism by the tea-bag party, has done very well. I think history will judge Obama as one of the best presidents of the US.
Kind regards,
Ben


plus one

He is the first American President in this lifetime that i have respected.
PS - any chance of swapping leaders - you can have ours - PLEASE
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby SDC » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:57 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Well I must admit I'm not very well informed on the subject, so my opinion has limited value. My information of american politics comes mainly from the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. However, the fact that Obama cannot "sell" the idea that people who are poor have the right to not die because of lack of health treatment, is absolutely insane! Many rich people paying less percentage of taxes than poor people is absolutely insane! If he can't argue the obvious it's either because he is incompetent or because he doesn't want to. Either way, he's a bad president.


Face palm!

Even though I disagreed with most of your recent anti-American posts, I was at least giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were somewhat informed. That's over now. Nothing personal though.
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:25 pm

Even though I don't have a detailed knowledge of american politics, I have put forward two arguments explaining why, imo, Obama is a bad president. Since I admited that I didn't have detailed knowledge you guys didn't even bother puting counter-arguments forward. "Oh, the poor ignorant guy. He has no idea." The two points stand _ and there's more. But let's focus on these for now.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby dagon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:32 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Even though I don't have a detailed knowledge of american politics, I have put forward two arguments explaining why, imo, Obama is a bad president. Since I admited that I didn't have detailed knowledge you guys didn't even bother puting counter-arguments forward. "Oh, the poor ignorant guy. He has no idea." The two points stand _ and there's more. But let's focus on these for now.


I am not american or interested in arguing but you may find this article interesting
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazi ... 035755.php

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby SDC » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:32 pm

I don't get into detailed political discussions because my knowledge is casual at best and my motivation to engage is almost non-existent.

And I didn't post that to dissuade you in any way from posting, but I will now look at what you say about this particular topic differently.
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:47 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Even though I don't have a detailed knowledge of american politics, I have put forward two arguments explaining why, imo, Obama is a bad president. Since I admited that I didn't have detailed knowledge you guys didn't even bother puting counter-arguments forward. "Oh, the poor ignorant guy. He has no idea." The two points stand _ and there's more. But let's focus on these for now.
I did put forth a very straightforward response to your abysmally ignorant opinion about Obama.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby daverupa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:52 am

Ben wrote:considering the hysterical opposition and criminal economic vandalism


Well-put, that.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Even though I don't have a detailed knowledge of american politics, I have put forward two arguments explaining why, imo, Obama is a bad president. Since I admited that I didn't have detailed knowledge you guys didn't even bother puting counter-arguments forward. "Oh, the poor ignorant guy. He has no idea." The two points stand _ and there's more. But let's focus on these for now.
I did put forth a very straightforward response to your abysmally ignorant opinion about Obama.


The response neither explained why he couldn't make most americans undrestand that poor people have the right to live (!); neither it explained why he couldn't make poor people see that many rich people are paying less taxes than them.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:08 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Even though I don't have a detailed knowledge of american politics, I have put forward two arguments explaining why, imo, Obama is a bad president. Since I admited that I didn't have detailed knowledge you guys didn't even bother puting counter-arguments forward. "Oh, the poor ignorant guy. He has no idea." The two points stand _ and there's more. But let's focus on these for now.
I did put forth a very straightforward response to your abysmally ignorant opinion about Obama.


The response neither explained why he couldn't make most americans undrestand that poor people have the right to live (!); neither it explained why he couldn't make poor people see that many rich people are paying less taxes than them.
Great googaly moogaly. Obama has addressed these issues many times as have others, but even the Buddha could not convince every one of his truly true truth, and so by your lights he is a bad Buddha. Buddhism was never a majority movement in India. Naughty Buddha, not convincing everyone. Baaaad Buddha. You are simply clueless here. Obama was re-elected is a context that no other president has been re-elected in -- high unemployment, a struggling economy, which points to a fact that that he rather successfully convinced the majority of Americans of these very points. The American political and social landscapes are complicated by numerous factors, but since you watch John Stewart and know everything about American society, I don't think I need to spell it out for you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:11 am

tiltbillings wrote:Great googaly moogaly. Obama has addressed these issues many times as have others, but even the Buddha could not convince every one of his truly true truth, and so by your lights he is a bad Buddha. Buddhism was never a majority movement in India. Naughty Buddha, not convincing everyone. Baaaad Buddha. You are simply clueless here. Obama was re-elected is a context that no other president has been re-elected in -- high unemployment, a struggling economy, which points to a fact that that he rather successfully convinced the majority of Americans of these very points. The American political and social landscapes are complicated by numerous factors, but since you watch John Stewart and know everything about American society, I don't think I need to spell it out for you.


The dhamma is subtle. Not allowing people to die because they are poor is obvious. So the comparisson is not good. Again you didn't adress the issue.

But let me be more concrete. For example, why does MSNBC not have the same strategy as Fox "News"? They could do it without lying. The republicans are raging fascists! It's scary that one of these lunatics can rise to power and have access to the nuclear codes. He could have played the Jesus card: Jesus emphasised generosity again and again; he emphasised love thy neighbour; the republicans are using Jesus against the american people. That joke of a show that was Glen Beck's should have been put down the second he called Obama, Hitler. There are limits to freedom of expression. These Fox "News" guys say the most pathetic things, including the Hitler & Stalin argument (a quite funny one btw). Are they not accountable for their words? He could have called them what they are: racists. And I know you agree with me here: the republicans just cannot stand that a black man has power over them.

Obama won the election in no small part because the other guy was one of those obvious loonies. A pathetic, robotic, loonie. Of course there is merit. I read part of the list that dagon linked to. Half of it are lies/distortions. But he did do good things. That isn't enough to make him a good president, imo.

I already admited not to know american politics in detail and that my main source of knowledge comes from the Daily Show, so why are you being sarcastic about me knowing all of american politics because of Jon Stewart? That was precisely the thing I inicialy said was not true.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:33 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Great googaly moogaly. Obama has addressed these issues many times as have others, but even the Buddha could not convince every one of his truly true truth, and so by your lights he is a bad Buddha. Buddhism was never a majority movement in India. Naughty Buddha, not convincing everyone. Baaaad Buddha. You are simply clueless here. Obama was re-elected is a context that no other president has been re-elected in -- high unemployment, a struggling economy, which points to a fact that that he rather successfully convinced the majority of Americans of these very points. The American political and social landscapes are complicated by numerous factors, but since you watch John Stewart and know everything about American society, I don't think I need to spell it out for you.


The dhamma is subtle. Not allowing people to die because they are poor is obvious. So the comparisson is not good. Again you didn't adress the issue.
The comparison is good enough, given that you have shown no comprehension of the political and historical subtleties at play in the issues at hand.

But let me be more concrete. For example, why does MSNBC not have the same strategy as Fox "News"? They could do it without lying. The republicans are raging fascists! It's scary that one of these lunatics can rise to power and have access to the nuclear codes. He could have played the Jesus card: Jesus emphasised generosity again and again; he emphasised love thy neighbour; the republicans are using Jesus against the american people. That joke of a show that was Glen Beck's should have been put down the second he called Obama, Hitler. There are limits to freedom of expression. These Fox "News" guys say the most pathetic things, including the Hitler & Stalin argument (a quite funny one btw). Are they not accountable for their words? He could have called them what they are: racists. And I know you agree with me here: the republicans just cannot stand that a black man has power over them.
You have not a clue as to what you are talking about. This shows no understanding of what is actually going on in the Republican Party or its history, but that does not stop you from naively pontificating.

. . . imo.
And as far as your opinion goes, it is uninformed.

I already admited not to know american politics . . . .
As we clearly see. When you can actually show that you have a reasonable handle on American politics and its historical context, we can talk. Right now you are sounding as informed as the run of the mill tea-bagger.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:05 am

It's either the 4th or 5th response and you still haven't given a counter-argument to either of my points. If I'm so blatantly ignorant it should be easy to demonstrate that I'm wrong. Please adress the points.

(EDIT: When you quote me, please do so in a fair way. You misquoted me the last time. What I don't know is the details. In depth. But it seems that I know enough to make two points that are not being proven false by anybody.

I'm not american and I'll admit that you're right the second you convince me. Since I started this discussion with a statement of my ignorance of the complete picture, you can be sure I'm being sincere.)
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:20 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:It's either the 4th or 5th response and you still haven't given a counter-argument to either of my points. If I'm so blatantly ignorant it should be easy to demonstrate that I'm wrong. Please adress the points.
I have given you appropriate counters to your points, which seems to be going over your head.

Image


I'm not american
I know, and that does not stop you from naively pontificating about what you do not know.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:33 am

Modus.Ponens wrote: But it seems that I know enough to make two points that are not being proven false by anybody.
Bovine coproforms. The problems you are not addressing, don't understand/don't know are the historical problems that Obama is facing. Obama has addressed these problems of inequality in terms of speeches and in policies, but somehow or another -- according to you -- for Obama not to be a bad president he must convince enough people of the issues you think are important so that things will radically change. That things have not radically changed according to your liking, he is a bad president -- according you. But then that is just an opinion that does not take into account what it is that Obama is actually facing, an opinion that carries no weight.

When you make a comment such as this -- "The republicans are raging fascists!" -- you have no comprehension of what is going on.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:37 am

I agree with Modens, Obama may be a lot better than some Republican alternative, but he's still basically a bad president, so far to the right, and in the pocket of big corporations, that calling himserlf a democrat is a bit of a stretch, it seems the powers that be saw the country was wanting a democrat so they entered a Republican calling himself a democrat, same with Bill Clinton, and I suspect Hillary, when democrats rush to defend such a president its evident they just want a democrat in name, not policy........
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:Ignorance of what the situation actually is. He is not a bad president. He is a president that is in a bad situation, much of which is out of his control, much of which has to do with forces that have been at play for some long while. He is a president that has moved things forward, while the atavistic forces are pushing back against that changes that are to them extremely fearsome. The USA is changing, it is browning, it is becoming more tolerant, but there are those who find this frightening, there are those who will exploit this fear for power and money. What we are seeing with America is a fascinating struggle as it pushes forward. Obama is not a bad president. While he is far from perfect, his pushing the social agenda of health care and equality, and his twice being elected, point to, for all the turmoil and struggle, something good going on here.


I think this is where you tried to make an actual argument. Can you please point out where, in this text, it's explained why he didn't convince the large majority of americans that dying because you are poor, and have no money to treat an illness, is unacceptable? Can you also point out in the text where it says why he wasn't able to convince the majority of americans that the rich paying less taxes than the poor is unfair and obscene?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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