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How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana - Dhamma Wheel

How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
arijitmitter
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How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:05 am

I have a confusion and I will try my best to express it -

I know nothing of my past Kamma baggage (how much bad Kamma and how much good Kamma I have carried into this birth). If I spend my entire life in only self less service of others, it is clearly not enough for Nibbana. Assuming I won 300 million dollars from a lottery, and I use most of it to help people rather than use it for myself then I am earning good Kamma. It will make my next birth in a higher realm or assure that at least I will be reborn as a human. But it will not let me be free of the cycle of birth and death - that is no Nibbana through self less service alone.

Just to lend some perspective -

Jains believe that suffering tremendously in this life alone is enough to nullify any previous bad Kamma. (Jain sadhus have clean shaven face, head and body. But no razor is used. Hair is ripped out by a fellow sadhu and the pain is tolerated quietly. That is just one of the ways they use to suffer. There are numerous more. There is nothing more unnerving than to see 14 day old beard being torn out of a Jain sadhu's face)

Hindus believe that Karma Yoga alone is enough for enlightenment (Karma being self less work for others in this sense)

In Hinduism there are 4 paths to Nirvana -

1 ) Bhakti Yoga - salvation through devotion to God
2 ) Jnana Yoga - salvation through reading the scriptures and arriving at enlightenment through reason and knowledge (Jnana)
3 ) Raja Yoga - salvation through performance of yogic exercises to purify body and soul and meditating on kundalini
4 ) Karma Yoga - salvation through path of self less service

But clearly that is not the case in Buddhism where meditation and self realization plays a large role.

So how does one arrive at perfect balance where Kamma is null (zero and neither positive or negative) and meditation is enough to allow one to proceed to Nibbana.

Understanding this is required, since although I maybe 200 life times away from Nibbana, I have to understand what is Nibbana vis a vis Kamma (I know what is Nibbana but what is it's interrelationship with Kamma)

I have tried to understand it from Angulimala Sutta but there is no description of what actually Angulimala did to overcome the lesser skill of murdering innocents. How did he repay his bad Kamma (I understand he was once beaten up badly but that is hardly enough to atone for 1000 murders).

Does Buddhism mean that pure heart and meditation alone is not only fuel on path to salvation but also gives redemption from previous Kamma

Note: part in italics is extra and not pertinent to my actual question

Since Raja Yoga leads to Samadhi, and so does Jhana, then is closest cousin of Buddhism Raja Yoga ?

Such as first step of Raja Yoga is - Yama

Yama (restraints) consists of five parts: ahimsa (non-violence), satya (truthfulness), asteya (non-stealing), brahmacharya (sexual abstinence), and aparigraha (non-covetousness). Ahimsa is perfect harmlessness, as well as positive love. The five directives of yama lay down behavioral norms as prerequisites for elimination of fear, and contribute to a tranquil mind. (Wikipedia)

Second step of Raja yoga is - Niyama

Niyama is observance of five canons: shaucha (internal and external purity), santosha (contentment), tapas (austerity), svadhyaya (study of religious books and repetitions of mantras), and ishvarapranidhana (self-surrender to God and his worship). Niyama, unlike uama, prescribes mental exercises to train the mind to control emotions. (Wikipedia)

Like this there are 8 steps (so the name Ashtanga Yoga)

Yama – code of conduct, self-restraint
Niyama – religious observances, commitments to practice, such as study and devotion
Āsana – integration of mind and body through physical activity
Prāṇāyāma – regulation of breath leading to integration of mind and body
Pratyāhāra – abstraction of the senses, withdrawal of the senses of perception from their objects
Dhāraṇā – concentration, one-pointedness of mind
Dhyāna – meditation (quiet activity that leads to samadhi)
Samādhi – the quiet state of blissful awareness, superconscious state.

This is very similar to Buddhism. I am not arguing who copied from whom. But does it mean meditation alone is redemptive in nature from Buddhist perspective ?


:anjali: Arijit
Last edited by arijitmitter on Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:34 am, edited 4 times in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:16 am

Greetings,

You might find this summary useful: http://www.bodhikaram.com/kamma.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:41 am

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

arijitmitter
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:55 am


Sanjay PS
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Sanjay PS » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:02 am

Hello ,

i think if we worry about kamma and its relation to Nibbana , we will more often than not , keep stumbling , and sometimes just stop the work all together . It may be best to leave kamma alone , and accept everything that comes our way , but leaving our faith untouched . One should not confuse this with blind faith , but a faith born of investigation of how our mind and bodies are interdependent , and as we keep up this investigation , faith , reverence , humility , abandoning of unskillful actions , are but inevitable .

i am sure the thought of kamma of Venerable Angulimal , must have crossed in many people minds . The way i understand it , just as there is no beginning or end of time , so also is there is no quantifying the balance of our skillful and unskillful actions . A murderer who becomes an Arhant , has a stock of unimaginable and unquantifiable amounts of skillful actions lying latent , which bears fruit at the time appropriate .

Hence , while a person becomes an Arhant just by watching and feeling the spilling of water from a jar ; the birth of its spill , growth and coming to rest of flow, another person may have to go through many hardships aeons together in becoming an Arhant . But i am sure the former Arhant , may also have worked very hard and in earnest and for many many ages together .

The sutta below are the 4 imponderables which The Budhha has advised us to leave alone .


22. "These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad & experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha]... The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... The results of kamma... Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad & experience vexation."

— AN 4.77
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:09 am

I wouldn't like to push the credit card or bank account analogy too far, but perhaps it is like declaring oneself bankrupt: “Let my creditors come and take whatever they want — I have nothing left to give.”

He became an Arahant on meeting the Buddha, and was ordained at once. As an Arahant he was completely open-hearted, concealing nothing of his previous crimes, and was not in the least attached to prolonging existence. King Pasenadi had set out with his army to capture , but when the Buddha told the king that he was now a monk, and sitting right beside him, the king offered to provide the four requisites for him. However, he declined the offer as he was observing the ascetic practices (dhutanga), living only on what he could gather on alms-round.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

arijitmitter
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:10 am

Okay then let me summarize it with an analogy -

An overweight man is drinking beer and smoking 2 packs a day. This will cause him to have a heat attack after few years.

But he chooses to take up dieting and workout (like precepts but for the body).

His past health problems vanish and from his overweight body emerges body of an Adonis after 5 years (Nibbana). The excesses of his past are forgiven by his following precepts of good healthy life.

If we take this and apply this to life itself, it answers the question I posed.

Am I correct in this informal analogy and summary ?

hermitwin
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby hermitwin » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:44 am

Obviously the kind of karma matters.
If all I did was donate money to the poor but
I was not interested in dhamma and got drunk every night.
My good karma will be riches only.

For example if you have meditated in your previous lives, then meditation will come easier to you. Also your previous association with
Wise , virtuous people will allow you to meet them again.

Some people go searching for teachers and not finding Good teachers.

Not to forget that we are constantly creating new karma. So what you do here, now matters a lot too.

Nibbana only comes when all your greed, aversion and delusion have been eradicated.

arijitmitter
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:04 am

My question is more complex than what anyone has been able to understand (although I thank them for answering it to best of their ability)

Good Kamma does not lead to Nibbana. But meditation and self realization leads to Nibbana. Nibbana frees us from Kamma.

Then is meditation and self realization a redemptive practice (All other religions have a God in place to grant redemption at some stage; Buddhism does not and hence the complication)

There is no God so there is no Who. But is is a valid question How I become free from Kamma.

Is Dhamma then an antidote to Kamma ? The Four Noble Truths will make it seem so. But there is one fact I cannot reconcile with - extreme sin as Angulimala had done can be wished away just by becoming a noble person.

That is a characteristic of religions with a God. God can alter your balance sheet. But we have learned that Kamma is an unforgiving force, chasing you across lifetimes to give you your due. How can Kamma just let a man who killed 999 people go scott free unless it implies Dhamma is an antidote to Kamma, nullifying its existence.

I cannot be the first person to ask this. There has to be many scholars in Buddhism who have pondered over if Dhamma is not only a means to attain Nibbana but also redemptive.

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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Sanjay PS » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:29 am

The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka

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cooran
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby cooran » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:40 am

Hello A.,

Have a search among these Suttas and articles - you may find an answer here:

Kamma
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#kamma

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:56 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:59 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Mr Man
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Mr Man » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:16 am

Kamma does not produce a fixed result for a fixed action. It is dynamic and constantly recreated. It is not a judgement or a retribution or an "unforgiving force".

From Ajahn Sumedho -

'Do good and you'll receive good; do bad and you'll receive bad.' We worry: 'I've done so many bad things in the past; what kind of result will I get from all that?' Well, all you can know is that what you've done in the past is a memory now. The most awful, disgusting thing you've ever done, that you wouldn't want anyone to know about, the one that, whenever anybody talks about kamma and rebirth, makes you think: 'I'm really going to get it for having done that' – that is a memory, and that memory is the kammic result. The additions to that – like fearing, worrying, and speculating – these are the kammic results of unenlightened behaviour.

What you do, you remember; it's as simple as that. If you do something kind, generous or compassionate, the memory makes you feet happy; and if you do something mean and nasty, you have to remember that. If you try to repress it, run away from it, get caught up in all sorts of frantic behaviour – that's the kammic result.

Kamma will cease through recognition. In mindfulness, you're allowing kammic formations to cease rather than recreating them, or annihilating them and recreating them. It's important to recollect that whatever you create, you destroy, and what you annihilate, you create – one conditions the other, just as the inhalation conditions the exhalation. One is the kammic result of the other. Death is the kammic result of birth, and all we can know about that which is born and dies is that it is a condition and not-self.


Sanjay PS
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Sanjay PS » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:06 am

The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka

arijitmitter
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:05 pm


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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:13 pm


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purple planet
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby purple planet » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:42 pm

Thanks for clearing things up Dhammanando
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Mr Man » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:19 pm



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