I have a question. Does anyone on this forum have any insight knowledge gained with vipassana? I know that the first insight knowledge is discrimination of mind and body, has anyone gained that knowledge? Please do state and describe your insight knowledge.
With Metta - smokey
Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
Hi Smokey
What you are asking is an indelicate question. Most practitioners I know, online or in the 'real' world, would hesitate to answer this question directly.
Kind regards
Ben
What you are asking is an indelicate question. Most practitioners I know, online or in the 'real' world, would hesitate to answer this question directly.
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
The Zen master Roshi Kapleau was asked if he was enlightened. He responded, "if I say no, all the beginners will leave and never come back. If I say yes, all of the advanced students will leave and never come back."
A Zen master, but the response could apply to anyone from any tradition.
A Zen master, but the response could apply to anyone from any tradition.
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
Hi Smokey
I know many many people who have gained this insight knowledge! It is the first one and not that difficult to gain insight into. You CAN do it with the help of meditation teacher who teaches insight meditation.
here are some clues:
moments of experiences are discrete, not continuous
every moment of experience contains a material component and a mental component
rupa: patavi,apo,tejo,vayo, nama: phassa, vedana,sanna,cetana, manasikara
the point of this insight is to understand that even a single moment of experience is made up of multiple mental and physical components- there by fracturing reality- actually seeing this, not just knowing
this is the first blow to breaking and dismantalling ignorance or avijja, hence letting go when all the reference points collapse and the drawbacks (adinava), the unsatisfactoriness is seen.
with metta
I know many many people who have gained this insight knowledge! It is the first one and not that difficult to gain insight into. You CAN do it with the help of meditation teacher who teaches insight meditation.
here are some clues:
moments of experiences are discrete, not continuous
every moment of experience contains a material component and a mental component
rupa: patavi,apo,tejo,vayo, nama: phassa, vedana,sanna,cetana, manasikara
the point of this insight is to understand that even a single moment of experience is made up of multiple mental and physical components- there by fracturing reality- actually seeing this, not just knowing
this is the first blow to breaking and dismantalling ignorance or avijja, hence letting go when all the reference points collapse and the drawbacks (adinava), the unsatisfactoriness is seen.
with metta
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
TheDhamma wrote:The Zen master Roshi Kapleau was asked if he was enlightened. He responded, "if I say no, all the beginners will leave and never come back. If I say yes, all of the advanced students will leave and never come back."
A Zen master, but the response could apply to anyone from any tradition.
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
In that case, I am sorry I asked. I apologize.Ben wrote:Hi Smokey
What you are asking is an indelicate question. Most practitioners I know, online or in the 'real' world, would hesitate to answer this question directly.
Kind regards
Ben
Metta - smokey
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
No problem.
I'm sorry I couldn't answer!
Metta
Ben
I'm sorry I couldn't answer!
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
No problem. Thank you anyway.Ben wrote:No problem.
I'm sorry I couldn't answer!
Metta
Ben
Metta - smokey
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
And VERY rediculous on BOTH sides, if you ask me. In the Christian tradition, salvation is celebrated and expected to be proclaimed by all who reach it. Since it is something that they all are expected to reach, and because it was not out of something that they did, but rather out of submitting, they automatically see it as something humble. It's too bad that Buddhism didn't evolve that way as well. When you look at the Gotama Buddha and his earliest followers, they didn't have any objection to any kind of proclamation or find it something not worthy of talking about. Actually, they encouraged all who wanted liberation to see for themselves if it is true or not. New comers back in those days were lucky to have leaders willing to be examples by saying it like it was. Now days if a beginner has a question about whether he/she is getting it right are hushed into silence, and the leaders go hide in the dark. That is truly a sad situation if you ask me.Kare wrote:TheDhamma wrote:The Zen master Roshi Kapleau was asked if he was enlightened. He responded, "if I say no, all the beginners will leave and never come back. If I say yes, all of the advanced students will leave and never come back."
A Zen master, but the response could apply to anyone from any tradition.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
The answer is right in your post. For the Christians it is humble since they are submitting, not achieving anything. In Buddhism, it is not about submitting, but rather achieving, in Buddhism it is enlightenment. So it could not be humble to announce to the world that one is enlightened. In fact, it would be quite arrogant, because it may not be full enlightenment and even if it were, most would not recognize it, thus, an enlightened one would have not interest in proclaiming it.flyingOx wrote: And VERY rediculous on BOTH sides, if you ask me. In the Christian tradition, salvation is celebrated and expected to be proclaimed by all who reach it. Since it is something that they all are expected to reach, and because it was not out of something that they did, but rather out of submitting, they automatically see it as something humble. It's too bad that Buddhism didn't evolve that way as well. When you look at the Gotama Buddha and his earliest followers, they didn't have any objection to any kind of proclamation or find it something not worthy of talking about. Actually, they encouraged all who wanted liberation to see for themselves if it is true or not. New comers back in those days were lucky to have leaders willing to be examples by saying it like it was. Now days if a beginner has a question about whether he/she is getting it right are hushed into silence, and the leaders go hide in the dark. That is truly a sad situation if you ask me.
The Buddha proclaimed his enlightenment, because the Dhamma had died out and he was 're-discovering' it and had to announce the re-discovery in a way that would be acceptable. I challenge you to find many instances of other monks during the Buddha's time (from the Suttas) who regularly proclaimed their enlightenment.
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
I disagree. Enlightenment isn't something that one achieves. It is the recognition of ultimate reality that is already there. The only thing that it could be said that one does to attain it is to wake up. And like you say, if someone hasn't really awakened to the true awakening, then it is obvious that they are not truly enlightened as they have the attitude that they have accomplished something. I can go through the suttas and list them for you, but you would probably just say that they were saying something different than what I was reading into it, so what would be the point? There would be no way of convincing someone who is stubbornly convinced that something is being misinterpreted by someone else who is less knowlegable. If someone comes along and indicates that they are not truly enlightened, then just ignore them and don't follow what they say.TheDhamma wrote: The answer is right in your post. For the Christians it is humble since they are submitting, not achieving anything. In Buddhism, it is not about submitting, but rather achieving, in Buddhism it is enlightenment. So it could not be humble to announce to the world that one is enlightened. In fact, it would be quite arrogant, because it may not be full enlightenment and even if it were, most would not recognize it, thus, an enlightened one would have not interest in proclaiming it.
The Buddha proclaimed his enlightenment, because the Dhamma had died out and he was 're-discovering' it and had to announce the re-discovery in a way that would be acceptable. I challenge you to find many instances of other monks during the Buddha's time (from the Suttas) who regularly proclaimed their enlightenment.
But why listen to me, anyway? I have already admitted to being nuts.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
Depending on the church, this salvation is achieved either by baptism or by baptism plus some kind of inner conversion experience. This would be more closely analogous to a Buddhist's going for refuge, not to realizing enlightenment. Buddhists don't have any problem with talking about their going for refuge.flyingOx wrote:In the Christian tradition, salvation is celebrated and expected to be proclaimed by all who reach it. Since it is something that they all are expected to reach, and because it was not out of something that they did, but rather out of submitting, they automatically see it as something humble.
A better analogy than the one you proposed would be between Buddhist enlightenment and Christian sainthood. It isn't usual for Christians to go about declaring themselves to be saints. In the Catholic Church, for example, such a declaration has to be made by others after one is dead.
In fact some limitations on what could be said were established by the Buddha himself in the rules for monks and nuns.When you look at the Gotama Buddha and his earliest followers, they didn't have any objection to any kind of proclamation or find it something not worthy of talking about.
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
I suppose you are right. If someone is proclaiming some kind of position within a certain religion, then yes, it is best left up to some committee. Although you say that enlightenment is not like salvation, then I guess you are also correct, but I don't see enlightenment as being like given the title of a saint, either, it is probably more like being filled with the holy spirit. Christians say that in order to walk in the spirit, one's self has to be crucified like Christ, or to give up one's own mind for the mind of Christ. This also is something that many Christians celebrate with speaking in angelic toungues and dancing. However, I do not believe that one even has to be a Buddhist in order to experience enlightenment, and as long as someone isn't purposefully trying to deceive others, then why make a big deal about it either way. Even if someone reaches a state that isn't full enlightenment, it is still probably better than the state that they were previously in, and if they are on their way to becoming enlightened, then everything will eventually work its way out, anyway, because they will begin to feel like something is missing and continue looking towards the real awakening.Macavity wrote: Depending on the church, this salvation is achieved either by baptism or by baptism plus some kind of inner conversion experience. This would be more closely analogous to a Buddhist's going for refuge, not to realizing enlightenment. Buddhists don't have any problem with talking about their going for refuge.
A better analogy than the one you proposed would be between Buddhist enlightenment and Christian sainthood. It isn't usual for Christians to go about declaring themselves to be saints. In the Catholic Church, for example, such a declaration has to be made by others after one is dead.
In fact some limitations on what could be said were established by the Buddha himself in the rules for monks and nuns.
I seriously think that too many people take things way too seriously and run people off because of it.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
Going back to the actual topic. I think smokey its a good idea to have a relationship with a non-cyber teacher to discuss these issues. This does not imply a " guru" type relationship, just cultivating a relationship with someone who is experienced in these matters. It may be a monk or lay person.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge
Thank you for the advice.Sanghamitta wrote:Going back to the actual topic. I think smokey its a good idea to have a relationship with a non-cyber teacher to discuss these issues. This does not imply a " guru" type relationship, just cultivating a relationship with someone who is experienced in these matters. It may be a monk or lay person.