Brain correlates....

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Myotai
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Brain correlates....

Post by Myotai »

Just listened to Leigh Brasington talk about Jhanas - "Focus and Freedom" - he often spoke of brain chemistry in terms of Jhanic states.....always makes me feel uncomfortable. If what the Buddha taught can be reduced to chemical changes in the brain, why not just develop a Jhana pill?
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Ben
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Re: Brain correlates....

Post by Ben »

It's just a different perspective. Keep in mind that the dominant paradigm at the moment appears to be scientific materialism. By presenting the jhanas in such a way, he is making the Dhamma a little more accessible to people who may ordinarily dismiss it.
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loud gush the streamlets,
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Myotai
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Re: Brain correlates....

Post by Myotai »

Thanks Ben, this is of course true of the moment! :)

Best evidence I have seen for brain not being synonomous with mind is the Pacebo effect....no other explanation needed IMHO. If the brain make changes when a non-placebo is administered, then what else evokes physiological changes when a placebo is used...?

Mind!

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lbrasington
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Re: Brain correlates....

Post by lbrasington »

Yep, I'm assuming that the mind is (at least a partial) reflection of brain/nervous system activity in response to the environment in which it finds itself embedded. Is this the whole story? I'd say we don't know -- but I personally have yet to see any evidence of some part of the mind outside of brain/nervous system activity.

The placebo effect proves nothing IMHO. The mind affects the body and vice versa. For an example of the mind affecting the body go to this page and sit back and watch for 15 seconds as the pictures flip by: http://leighb.com/pix2013/Portugal/R001 ... tugal.html
Did the 3rd picture generate any bodily reaction when you realized what you were look at? Maybe not -- I may only get it because I took the picture. But for sure I get a tightening in my gut when I look at that picture -- and its all in my mind.

Given that the jhanas do arise in correlation with distinct brain states, I want to understand those states. Doing so just might make it easier to teach people how to enter and use these states. As for a jhana pill -- our understanding of how the brain works is far too primitive at this time to do so. You'll just have to use the ol' sittin' on a cushion method to get to the jhanas.

Leigh Brasington
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fig tree
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Re: Brain correlates....

Post by fig tree »

Myotai wrote:Best evidence I have seen for brain not being synonomous with mind is the Pacebo effect....no other explanation needed IMHO. If the brain make changes when a non-placebo is administered, then what else evokes physiological changes when a placebo is used...?
The first time I read this, I accidentally missed the "not". I don't see it as more compatible with either assumption than the other. If mind is essentially just an activity of the brain, then the brain can influence the rest of the body just as easily as the mind could assuming it was independent of the brain. I was interested to read that the immune system has receptors for neurotransmitters; the same chemicals as serve as messengers for the brain get used as some kind of signal to the body's defenses.

The mind being just a function of the body makes rebirth harder to believe, but I don't see how else it affects practice.

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Myotai
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Re: Brain correlates....

Post by Myotai »

I would say that the WHOLE of Buddhism as a viable and legitimate religion is based almost exclusively upon the existence of past and future lives.

If the mind dies with the brain then there isn't anything (apart from constructed morals based upon an inconsequential fantasy) to stop us being utterly hedonistic....


I am going to start a new thread re this but thought I would answer here first - hope thats ok?
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kirk5a
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Re: Brain correlates....

Post by kirk5a »

lbrasington wrote:Yep, I'm assuming that the mind is (at least a partial) reflection of brain/nervous system activity in response to the environment in which it finds itself embedded. Is this the whole story? I'd say we don't know -- but I personally have yet to see any evidence of some part of the mind outside of brain/nervous system activity.
You claim to have personally attained the cessation of perception and feeling, am I interpreting what you've said below correctly? What, in that state, is indicative of brain/nervous system activity?
lbrasington wrote: I did not experience saññavedayitanirodha while doing these measurement - cuz I very seldom ever experience it, and certainly not under the less-than ideal circumstance of being measured while meditating.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Brain correlates....

Post by Ceisiwr »

Myotai wrote:Just listened to Leigh Brasington talk about Jhanas - "Focus and Freedom" - he often spoke of brain chemistry in terms of Jhanic states.....always makes me feel uncomfortable. If what the Buddha taught can be reduced to chemical changes in the brain, why not just develop a Jhana pill?


Chemical reactions occur in the brain when we meditate, however different chemical reactions go on all the time in the brain depending on what we are doing (sex, drugs, happy, stresses, asleep etc)


A jhana pill, that would be nice

A short cut to Jhana is unlikely, however it was possible you would still need to develop wisdom, which is different.

You can be in Jhana and not see the Dhamma

I dont know how you would develop a pill for "Wisdom"


If you find out though, let me know :thumbsup: :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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