Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Sokehi
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Sokehi » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:40 pm

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko


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gavesako
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby gavesako » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:03 am

The first part of Ven­er­a­ble Phra Payutto’s book ‘The Bud­dhist Dis­ci­pline in Rela­tion to Bhikkhu­nis: Ques­tions & Answers: Phra Payutto & Dr. Mar­tin Seeger’ is now available (also touching on the issue of the newly ordained bhikkhunis in the West):

http://www.buddhistteachings.org/the-bu ... bhikkhunis

:reading:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
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Sokehi
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Sokehi » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:20 am

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko


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David N. Snyder
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:43 pm

Those analogies are faulty and moot. The bhikkhuni line has already been re-established. The bhikkhunis speak and teach with clarity and confidence and are doing well.

It is not compassionate (karuna) or loving-kindness (metta) to deny women access to the holy life (in my opinion).

As it states in your signature line:
Let none find fault with others; let none see the omissions and commissions of others.
But let one see one's own acts, done and undone.
(Dhammapada, 50)
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Sokehi
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Sokehi » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:55 pm

As you might have noticed by my previous postings within this thread I have not made an appearance as an "anti bhikkuni" practicioner or sexist buddhist. And just by quoting someone not necesarrily expresses that he or she is absolutely down with the quotes in itself. As I've written I am unhappy what I have found within this book but still I have to not just follow my desires on this topic. I have no doubt that these Nuns are speaking, acting and teaching wise and wonderful dhamma (have not experienced yet, but still), but that is not the issue at hand. It appears that this ordinations in itself have caused quite some trouble and were conducted unanimous. Yes you are right, it has been established and future will show what will come out of this. One could argue that it doesn't matter that every theravadan buddhist or monk on this planet earth is accepting these ordinations, and he or she would be perfectly right. That doesn't matter. But what does matter in my opinion is that one could find some objections within the vinaya that ven. Phra Payutto has laid down in this book. It is an interesting read and still if you don't agree it is a worthwhile read and shows that he doesn't seem to be lacking karuna with these nuns but moreso is worrying about there present and future acceptance and what this could mean for their own wellbeing and confidence as bhikkunis.

:anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko


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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby reflection » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:36 pm

Well, if one was really worried about acceptance, then I for one don't think one should write or support a book saying their ordination may not be valid. That's just doing the opposite. Also, it clearly is not just concern for the future, because to me it is actually questioning the validity of the nuns who performed the ordination as well - and thus their lineage all the way back. So it is getting stuck in the past. Let's move on.

If we really want to be compassionate and accepting, I'd say it's better to let this topic go already. It's been four years, the ordinations won't be reversed, and as far as I know, the bhukkhunis are doing just fine. Hope to visit them one day, get some inspiration from them and pay my respect. :anjali:

Just perhaps we could conclude this topic with this lovely video. I would hope so.


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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Sokehi » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:37 am

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko


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Dan74
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Dan74 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:12 am

What has emerged for me in the above discussion (and elsewhere) is that many people treasure the Vinaya and respect it, adhere to it and expect adherence, to a large extent for the sake of Vinaya. Whereas for others, Vinaya has a purpose, ie to support a holy life and this is as far as their respect for Vinaya goes. Perhaps this fundamental difference in approach is worth exploring?
_/|\_

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reflection
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby reflection » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:44 am

I am no Vinaya expert, to say that first. But reading through the book (which I admit I haven't read fully, but also not just the isolated quotes), the main questions raised in the book seems whether bhikkhus can ordain bhikkhunis. That means, to ordain them without bhikkhunis. However, in the case of this topic that is totally irrelevant because this is not how it happened. The ordinations were performed by bhikkhunis, so vinaya-wise there is no wrong-doing, on that subject at least. And unless I missed something, nobody at the ordination was formally accused of breaking the vinaya. So if there were real solid objections, were are they? (As I said I'm no expert, but I trust those who did the ordination and those who had the possibility of making an objection afterward)

So then the question becomes: do we see these nuns that did the ordinations as representative of the original sangha? Apparently some people don't think so - or at least look at their order in such a way that they can't ordain "Theravadan" nuns. Whatever Theravadan would mean exactly.

I'm not trying to create friction anywhere, but I'm just wondering what is acceptance and how do we best practice it with respect to this topic. In my eyes the best acceptance is to see the ordaining and ordained nuns as following the vinaya and as representatives of the original sangha. However anybody else thinks it's best to practice is their business, but having doubts about the certainty of future bhikkhunis is a strange reason not to ordain them or not accept their ordination. It has very little to do with actual concern for women's benefits. It's a bit like being afraid food makes you sick in the future, so you decide not to eat at all. You avoid a potential problem (however unlikely), but at the cost of what? Is this healthy? Is this acceptance and loving kindness?

I will also leave it at this unless somebody has a specific question or correction. :anjali:
Last edited by reflection on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby daverupa » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:04 pm

This was linked somewhere else as I recall, perhaps this very thread, but I wasn't able to easily find it again yet it's quite related - so here it is again:

, by Bhikkhu Anālayo.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Zom » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:06 pm


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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby robertk » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:49 am

yes Zom,it is obvious. That article by Anayalo is extraordinary in its illogic IMHO.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:53 am


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faraway
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby faraway » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:05 am

Hi,

Anyone can show me vinaya or sutta that said about rule of bhikkhuni must be ordained by bhikkhuni sangha and bhikkhu sangha.

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tellyontellyon
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby tellyontellyon » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:33 pm

The way I see it the whole purpose of the development of Vinaya in the past was to protect and advance the teachings of the Buddha. If the 'rules' are getting in the way of that purpose then they must be changed.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:29 pm

No the rules must not be changed. But the rules should be used in such a way so as to perpetuate the sangha, as the Buddha intended. Its just illogical to use an organisation's rules towards its own extinction

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Zom
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Zom » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:30 pm

Exactly backwards. The rule about the need of "4 bhukkhus + 4 bhikkhunis to ordain +1 more bhikkhuni" was established by the Buddha exactly to strengthen Sangha - not to weaken it. Likewise the rule about 4 bhikkhus needed to ordain +1 bhikkhu.

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Sokehi
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Sokehi » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:02 pm

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko


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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:31 pm

Thailand Hosts 1st ASEAN Buddhist Conference

Nakhon Pathom Rajabhat University in central Thailand played host to the 1st ASEAN Buddhist Conference on 22–23 September. Drawing monastic and lay speakers and participants from 23 countries, the inaugural forum, with the theme “ASEAN Buddhists: Beyond 26th Buddhist Century,” focused mainly on the re-establishment of female ordination in the Theravada tradition.




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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:10 pm

Anukampa Bhikkhuni Project: Nuns’ Monastery Set to Become Reality




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