Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by Sam Vara »

Alas. I do not follow this at all.
Sorry, Tilt, you probably need to read the thread in its entirety.
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by Mr Man »

Spiny Norman wrote: So in simple terms a Christian assumes the existence of God and Soul, while a Buddhist assumes the non-existence of God and Soul.
So Buddhism is atheistic?
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Actually Buddhism is more pantheistic than atheist, at least in the scriptures. Buddha never denied Gods, he just denied that they were ultimately pure or perfect.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by Mr Man »

lyndon taylor wrote:Actually Buddhism is more pantheistic than atheist, at least in the scriptures. Buddha never denied Gods, he just denied that they were ultimately pure or perfect.
Pantheistic or polytheistic?

I'm not sure if Buddhist gods correlate with how gods are generally understood. A god that dies is not really much of a god.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mr Man wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: So in simple terms a Christian assumes the existence of God and Soul, while a Buddhist assumes the non-existence of God and Soul.
So Buddhism is atheistic?
Good question. I'd characterise it more as non-theistic, though I've observed that many western Buddhists are atheistic in outlook.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mr Man wrote:I'm not sure if Buddhist gods correlate with how gods are generally understood. A god that dies is not really much of a god.
Yes, devas aren't directly comparable with polytheistic gods.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:The doctrine of anatta is only concerned with complete understanding of what the theistic position lacks.
Though anatta still is a doctrine, or at least an assumption. So in simple terms a Christian assumes the existence of God and Soul, while a Buddhist assumes the non-existence of God and Soul. The respective practices of the two traditions then reflect these different assumptions.
The Dhamma is not based on assumption. Knowledge of no-self is based on anattasaññā.
But the methodology involved in this "knowledge" relies on the assumption of anatta, so it's all a bit chicken and egg.

Also, we can't prove the non-existence of soul any more than we can prove the non-existence of God.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Sam Vara wrote:Ancient Buddhism:
The doctrine of anatta is only concerned with complete understanding of what the theistic position lacks...The difference is that the Dhamma and anatta doctrine was no mere view or claim. It is based upon empirical knowledge and is given in the discourses with the invitation to examine the relevance of an atta through ones own experience. This, for the Dhamma aspirant, is known through direct experience cognitions.
But unless one already has a complete understanding of the theistic position, and therefore what it lacks, one is no further forward. If "direct experience cognitions" are the deciding factor, we need to acknowledge that they may also be claimed by theists. Without direct knowledge, any choice between the two positions would presumably be based upon faith, preference, tradition, reasoning, considered acceptance of views, etc...
Direct knowledge is the hallmark and catalyst of contemplative work toward the aim of nibbāna. Your pleas to ignorance to acceptance of untenable views by default would make more sense if the context was framed as your own dilemma. Otherwise you present a poor fund of knowledge of Dhamma which makes for tedious reading.

There are many epithets for Dhammic empiricism, but this one is rather fitting at this time and may be helpful:
  • “Is there a method by which … other than by faith, other by than preferences, other than by what was said, other than by circular reasoning, other than by acceptance of a theory one favors; but one by which can be proclaimed with direct knowledge ‘exhausted is birth, fulfilled is the highest aspiration, done is what had to be done, there is nothing more for this existence.”

    Atthi nū kho ... pariyāyo ... aññatreva saddhāya aññatra ruciyā aññatra anussavā aññatra ākāraparivitakkā aññatra diṭṭhinijjhānakkhantiyā aññaṃ vyākareyya: “khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāmī” ti…

    “ … having seen an object with the eye – if there is desire, corrupt intentions, and delusion within oneself, a bhikkhu directly knows ‘desire, corrupt intentions, and delusion are within me’; or if there is not desire, corrupt intentions and delusion within oneself, he directly knows ‘desire, corrupt intentions and delusion do not exist within me.’ ...”

    “cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā santaṃ vā ajjhattaṃ rāgadosamohaṃ atthi me ajjhattaṃ rāgadosamohoti pajānāti, asantaṃ vā ajjhattaṃ rāgadosamohaṃ natthi me ajjhattaṃ rāgadosamohoti pajānāti…”

    – S.N. 35.153
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

ancientbuddhism wrote:There are many epithets for Dhammic empiricism, but this one is rather fitting at this time and may be helpful:
  • “Is there a method by which … other than by faith, other by than preferences, other than by what was said, other than by circular reasoning, other than by acceptance of a theory one favors; but one by which can be proclaimed with direct knowledge ‘exhausted is birth, fulfilled is the highest aspiration, done is what had to be done, there is nothing more for this existence.”
But again it's relative, because different traditions will have different understandings of what "direct knowledge" is. A Christian might describe this in terms of their personal relationship with God.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Spiny Norman wrote:But the methodology involved in this "knowledge" relies on the assumption of anatta, so it's all a bit chicken and egg.
This is incorrect.
Spiny Norman wrote:Also, we can't prove the non-existence of soul any more than we can prove the non-existence of God.
We can develop direct knowledge of the relevance of an atta (or any other reification) to our cognitive range.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Spiny Norman wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:There are many epithets for Dhammic empiricism, but this one is rather fitting at this time and may be helpful:
  • “Is there a method by which … other than by faith, other by than preferences, other than by what was said, other than by circular reasoning, other than by acceptance of a theory one favors; but one by which can be proclaimed with direct knowledge ‘exhausted is birth, fulfilled is the highest aspiration, done is what had to be done, there is nothing more for this existence.”
But again it's relative, because different traditions will have different understandings of what "direct knowledge" is. A Christian might describe this in terms of their personal relationship with God.
Your reasoning is specious. There are people in the psych-triage unit with any number of ideas of direct knowledge too. But I don’t hold their views on reality as “relative” or equally valid.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sam Vara wrote:
Alas. I do not follow this at all.
Sorry, Tilt, you probably need to read the thread in its entirety.
I have, but what you are saying still make no sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Mr Man wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Actually Buddhism is more pantheistic than atheist, at least in the scriptures. Buddha never denied Gods, he just denied that they were ultimately pure or perfect.
Pantheistic or polytheistic?

I'm not sure if Buddhist gods correlate with how gods are generally understood. A god that dies is not really much of a god.
my mistake, I meant polytheistic.

As to Gods dying, just look at the greek gods, they were killing themselves and dying all the time. The definition of a God does not have to match up with the Christian God's definition.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by daverupa »

The book The Boundaries of Knowledge in Buddhism, Christianity, and Science is relevant to this discussion, for what it's worth, with articles covering epistemology as it relates to the three named fields.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
greenjuice
Posts: 285
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:56 pm

Re: Is Buddhism closer to Christianity than atheism?

Post by greenjuice »

Afaik, concerning god- in the sense of the (transcendent or immanent) creator of the universe- buddhism is agnostic.
Post Reply