Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

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daverupa
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by daverupa »

Related:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1156 ... llegations
Earlier this month, The New Republic republished a highly critical blogpost about author Rupert Sheldrake. Jerry Coyne, a University of Chicago professor and the author of Why Evolution is True referred to Sheldrake as a "pseudoscientist" and lampooned the allegation that Sheldrake was being persecuted by "militant skeptics." Coyne's piece also derided Deepak Chopra, the physician and alternative medicine figure who has been one of Sheldrake's defenders. Chopra responded with this letter to the editor—and Coyne, in turn responds to the letter...
One of the examples cited there by Deepak's opponent, of Deepak's own writing:
The moon exists in consciousness—no consciousness, no moon—just a sluggishly expanding wave function in a superposition of possibilities. All happens within consciousness and nowhere else.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Ben
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Ben »

Dave,

Whenever anyone mentions Buddhism and quantum mechanics in the same sentence, I feel an irrepressible urge to roll my eyes into the back of their sockets.
so, I am grateful to you for sharing the chopra/coyne exchange in New Republic.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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chownah
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by chownah »

I like quantum physics because it clearly shows that the way things are is not as obvious as the typical worldling thinks.
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mikenz66
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by mikenz66 »

chownah wrote:I like quantum physics because it clearly shows that the way things are is not as obvious as the typical worldling thinks.
chownah
I agree, but there is a tendency by people who don't actually know much about quantum mechanics to make the illogical leap:
  • Quantum physics doesn't match our every-day experience
    ...therefore...
    <some speculative statement about what it implies about consciousness/reality/etc>
:anjali:
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Buckwheat »

chownah wrote:I like quantum physics because it clearly shows that the way things are is not as obvious as the typical worldling thinks.
chownah
I agree. It is really fascinating to see that the world can function in mind-blowing and odd manners. However, it is very dangerous to apply quantum ideas to real world stuff. For instance, wave-particle duality is only really a factor for very small things like electrons. For the moon, the particle-ness is so completely overwhelming as to invalidate Chopra's claim that the moon is nothing but a probability function until we observe it.
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chownah
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by chownah »

Buckwheat,
It is my understanding that wave particle duality has been demonstrated for buckminsterfullerenes (Bucky balls) which contain 60 carbon atoms........still very very small but absolutely huge compared to an electron.
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mikenz66
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by mikenz66 »

Apparently up to at least 400-atom molecules:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... -the-movie

Here is a movie of the build-up of the interference patter, where you see essentially the impact of each molcule on the detector:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCiOMQIR ... r_embedded

:anjali:
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Spiny Norman »

Buckwheat wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I mean would these natural patterns have any meaning without an observer?
Meaning is a totally different discussion. The theory of biocentricity goes so far as to say that time/space would not even exist in the absence of consciousness. I see no evidence to support that bold assertion.
Though quantum mechanics seems to have explored a range of possibilities about how an observer affects "reality": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousn ... ollapse.22
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Spiny Norman »

Buckwheat wrote: However, it is very dangerous to apply quantum ideas to real world stuff.
It can certainly be misleading, because our everyday world operates according to Newtonian mechanics rather than quantum mechanics.
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chownah
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by chownah »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Buckwheat wrote: However, it is very dangerous to apply quantum ideas to real world stuff.
It can certainly be misleading, because our everyday world operates according to Newtonian mechanics rather than quantum mechanics.
I think that science usually would say that Newtonian mechanics is a better description or every day world actions rather than quantum mechanical descriptions.........it is usually not accepted that the world operates according to any scientific description......the world does what it does.......science only tries to describe it.
chownah
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Spiny Norman »

chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Buckwheat wrote: However, it is very dangerous to apply quantum ideas to real world stuff.
It can certainly be misleading, because our everyday world operates according to Newtonian mechanics rather than quantum mechanics.
I think that science usually would say that Newtonian mechanics is a better description or every day world actions rather than quantum mechanical descriptions.........it is usually not accepted that the world operates according to any scientific description......the world does what it does.......science only tries to describe it.
chownah
I agree. I think this relates back to the point about the observed and the observer, and the relationship between them.
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fig tree
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by fig tree »

reflection wrote: Nice post, except I don't understand "The presence or absence of the particle can in principle be detected with however little disturbance to the particle itself". This is not true according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

But this would turn into a discussion about QM. I'm no expert (just know some basics) and this is not my intention in this thread, so Ill leave it at this.

:anjali:
It can be very tricky to state matters in a precise way, and it seems very easy to try, and wind up with a somewhat involved explanation, but then find that one is still being a bit imprecise.

When I wrote of detecting the presence or absence of the particle before, I meant detecting whether the particle is going through the left slit or the right slit. This is not the same as if one were to try to detect the precise location of the particle. By the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, if the position is observed to be within a small enough radius of a given point, then the momentum (hence velocity) can't also be determinately within a certain small range of a fixed value at the same time. In our case, though, all I'm describing our doing is observing which side of the apparatus the particle is on, and the uncertainty in momentum forced by doing that is minuscule. In a two slit experiment the slits usually have to be somewhat close, but one can do similar experiments where the two paths taken by the particle are meters or even kilometers apart before they come back together and one gets interference fringes. The Heisenberg limit for detecting whether a particle is in New York or Los Angeles isn't something to worry about. But the mere fact of having made it possible to distinguish afterward which side of the experiment the particle passed through is enough to get rid of the interference fringes.

Physicists sometimes denote quantum states with a notation like this: |s>. A system made up of two pieces can sometimes be described by giving the states of the two pieces, like this: |s1>|s2>. Suppose that it's a question of a particle like an electron that might be observed to be in a state |e_L> going through the left slit, or a state |e_R> going through the right slit. A superposition of the two can be written as |e_L>+|e_R> (and I'll leave off dividing by the square root of 2 here, which typically would be done to keep the magnitude of the result the same). Suppose there is also a detector with possible states |D> that it starts in, |D_L> and |D_R> the state of having detected the electron on the left or on the right. If |e_L> and |e_R> are states in which the electron is in two genuinely separate regions, then they are orthogonal and in principle there is a measurement process that distinguishes them without disturbing them. That is, a process in which |e_L>|D> would evolve to |e_L>|D_L> and |e_R>|D> would evolve to |e_R>|D_R>. The rules of quantum physics allow a process like this as long as it satisfies a property called unitarity, which this does as long as |e_L> and |e_R> are orthogonal. Unitarity means essentially that the angles, corresponding to the degree to which states are reliably distinguishable from each other, is preserved (and that superpositions also are preserved).

The two things I meant to say were that in this observation process, where one can have an electron passing on the left and being observed there, or likewise on the right, the two component states of the electron don't have to be disturbed. Limitations of experimental technique may mean that |e_L>|D> really evolves into |e_L'>|D_L> where |e_L'> is very slightly different from |e_L>, but there's no Heisenberg-enforced lower limit on how small the disturbance is. Second, just the fact that the detector has made a detection, that |D_L> and |D_R> are now orthogonal, is enough to get rid of the interference fringes.

But if I want to be 100% accurate in what I'm saying, the measurement really is a change in the state of the electron, just a more subtle change. Before the measurement, one says the electron is in a "pure" superposition of the two states, |e_L> and |e_R>. After measurement, one says that the electron and the detector have become "entangled", and the state of the electron is described now as being a "mixture" of |e_L> and |e_R>, and they don't interfere as before. That's the essential difference. It does have an effect on the momentum but a very small one not particularly responsible for the change in the interference fringes.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Spiny Norman »

Spiny Norman wrote: Though quantum mechanics seems to have explored a range of possibilities about how an observer affects "reality": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousn ... ollapse.22
Actually, thinking this through, it does seem very unlikely that the universe wasn't the universe before human consciousness developed to observe it...( or space alien consciousness )... :rolleye:

This QM stuff makes my brain hurt. :D
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Mkoll
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Mkoll »

Please keep in mind: science doesn't "prove" anything. The closest thing that science comes to proof are theories that are both testable and falsifiable.
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Kare
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Kare »

Quantum physics proves there IS a quantum physics. Nothing about the afterlife.

And to quote the famous quantum physicist Richard Feynman: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." So I instinctively distrust someone who is not a quantum physicist, who still claims not only to understand quantum physics, but even to prove an afterlife with it.
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