I'd rather be reborn

[kmath]

There are no quick answers in Dhamma, only insight won through experience. In the suttas, those who become enlightened via tremendous insight after hearing a single discourse are already extremely spiritually mature, having cultivated the perfections over many lives. Don't think you're one of them. Answer your own questions yourself with practice and time. Read the suttas. Meditate. And if you get an answer, don't cling to it or you'll just create more views. View after view after view after view...clinging never ends until its conditions end and its conditions only end through practice (action).

At a certain point with any subject, thinking and pondering just creates more views. It's like doing math problems. You can think for an eternity about integrals or derivatives in calculus with all the theoretical knowledge in the world. But until you actually sit your butt down, pick up a pencil, and work out the problems yourself, you will only be able to think so far. Then, once you've gained some insights through practicing problems, all that theoretical knowledge will have a different, clearer light shed on it. Dhamma is no different. You read the suttas and ponder them (theoretical knowledge) then you meditate (practice) and insights come, skills develop. Then the suttas become clearer and you can think and ponder some more because there's more "space" to do so.

The Dhamma is limitless.

Good luck in your practice.

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana? Just practice and you'll find out.

That's kind of circular. I should practice so I can find out what the point of practice is. Sounds a little too Zen for me...

[daverupa]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana? Just practice and you'll find out.

The point of practice is the nibbana of greed, hate, and delusion, which means the cessation of dukkha. Nibbana is just this cessation.

So it is very simple.

If there is experience after the death of the arahant, from which point is it? All points? No points? Some point?

I wouldn't worry about hypotheticals such as this, especially since this is one of the ones that vexed the Buddha's contemporaries and which was still to be set aside as poorly framed (asking if a tathagata exists after death is a little bit like asking what sort of mother a barren woman is - the question is simple, but impossible to answer since there are problems in the terms). And anyway, even if you got an answer, you couldn't check it for yourself.

So, you'll want to focus on the Dhamma you can verify for yourself here and now.

[cooran]

hello all,

Articles and Suttas about Nibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#nibbana

With metta,
Chris

[SDC]

But hold on. I didn't ask who does the experiencing. I asked if there is experience for the arahant after his or her death. Ok fine maybe it's not his or her experience. It's just experience. So... what some kind of omnipresence then?

Sure you can say that for a given individual, there is just experience without self. That self is a delusion. I think most of us have seen that in meditation. But there is still this experience from this vantage point. You don't have to call it mine. But for me, there is no experience of your body and your mind. My world is from this point.

If there is experience after the death of the arahant, from which point is it? All points? No points? Some point?

The way I understand it – taking into account everything from my previous post – after death there is still the experience of nibbana. If you insist on knowing from what point, you are still allowing existence to precede experience – having replaced “self” with “point”. You need to undercut the concept of existence to allow this thought experiment to work.

Look, I’m no ariya. This is just how I’ve come to understand it, and though a good deal of my explanation is an intellectual interpretation of these concepts, some is experiential. I can keep trying to clarify, but I hope you’re willing to bend along the way.

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

It is not a basic question. And I think you know that. You just can’t understand why people would be pursuing what they cannot fully explain. However there are many more things to experience from the dhamma on the way to nibbana which can be of great value and be of great benefit. While they may not be as impressive as some other higher level aspects, keep in mind that they are part of the path and if they can be accomplished then it gives one confidence that further aspects along the path are possible.

[tiltbillings]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana?

Nibbana is clearly defined as: That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. SN IV 251 and IV 321. Nibbana is no longer defining the world, relating to the world, constructing the world in terms of grasping after that which reinforces the sense of self, pushing away that which threatens the sense of self, constructing the world in terms of "I --as unchanging thing -- am."

[seeker242]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana? Just practice and you'll find out.

If you could really know it by just reading book or having someone tell you about it, there would be no use for practice to begin with.

That's kind of circular. I should practice so I can find out what the point of practice is. Sounds a little too Zen for me...

The point of practice is freedom from suffering! But, it's not unreasonable to say that if you want to know what something is really like, you have to experience it firsthand. Descriptions of the experience and the experience itself are two different things. Descriptions can only go so far. Words have limits! That's why you can't get enlightenment just by reading books.

[DNS]

I'm starting to think I'd rather be born again.

As what?

Good question...

Need to think about that.

Check out the Nanda Sutta.

After Nanda left to become a monk, he could not stop thinking of his lover who had said to him on leaving: ‘Come back soon, young master.’ Informed of this problem, the Buddha took Nanda by the arm and transported him up to a heaven realm ‘where the nymphs have feet like doves.’ Pointing to these nymphs, he asked Nanda: ‘Which is more beautiful, these nymphs or your girlfriend?’ ‘Compared to these nymphs my girlfriend is like a mutilated monkey,’ Nanda replied. With this new and more beautiful image in his mind Nanda began meditating diligently in the hope of being reborn in the company of these nymphs. When the other monks heard of this, they smirked and laughed at Nanda’s motives, calling him a ‘day labourer,’ i.e. someone who works for meagre wages.
In Buddhism, seeking rebirth in heaven is considered more lofty than rebirth in purgatory, but decidedly inferior to attaining Nirvāṇa.This teasing made Nanda feel somewhat ashamed of himself but eventually this was replaced by self-respect and the determination to practise for the right reasons. Living diligently and in solitude he eventually became enlightened. The taking of Nanda up to heaven is cited as an example of the Buddha’s skilful means (Th. 158). Aśvaghoṣa’s famous poem, the Saundarānandakāvya, is based on the life of Nanda.

http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=280

After attaining enlightenment, Nanda, of course had no more craving for such an existence in that heavenly realm. (Not saying that you have the same craving Nanda did, but in general craving for such a [heavenly] existence can be eradicated too, according to the texts.)

[robertk]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.

[Sanjay PS]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.

This simile is always superb .

There was never a fire in the first place . Just an inter-depenence of aggregates .

sanjay

[tiltbillings]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.

This simile is always superb .

There was never a fire in the first place . Just an inter-depenence of aggregates .

sanjay

And don't forget, if you are going down that road, there were never any aggregates either.

[tiltbillings]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.

A fire cannot be cold.

[Sanjay PS]

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.

A fire cannot be cold.

Cold is just the less fire or the absence of fire . Actually there is nothing called cold , by itself .

The four great elements are earth , fire wind and water , that course through our body in varying intensities from moment to moment , giving rise to various kinds of mental feeling from time to time .

As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay

[Sanjay PS]

This simile is always superb .

There was never a fire in the first place . Just an inter-depenence of aggregates .

sanjay

[/quote]And don't forget, if you are going down that road, there were never any aggregates either.[/quote]

True , true .

i have yet to reach as far though . But the march is on

sanjay

[tiltbillings]

As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay

There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.

[Sanjay PS]

As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay

There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.

You see i am no Arhant .

But the truth for an Arhant ( which is the ultimate truth ) is that all he sees , smells , hears , touches, congnizes and tastes is nothing but sorrow , because the 5 kandhas ( 4 parts of the mind , and matter ) are in continuous state of perpetual change , decay ; both for the observer as well as that what is being observed.

The four great elements that Arhants Ajhan Chan , Venerable Ledi Sayadaw and Venerable Webu Sayadaw refer to , exhibit the characteristics of heaviness to lightness , heat to no heat , great motion to stillness ; cohesion to no cohesion . Respective of earth , fire , wind and water , which can be easily felt within our body and minds, and are constituents .These kandhas or elements are further broken down through insight ,as nothing but sub-atomic particles that vanishes as soon as it arises , hence , the experience as there is no such thing that exists

The worlds exists , on the laws of inter-dependence , which can be felt both practically , experientially , intellectually. For Z to stand A is required , for A to stand , Z is required . Nothing exits on its own . Hence it is easy for me to intellectually understand that there is no I , Me and Mine . Experientially , i haven't yet finished walking the mile . You may well have realized and uprooted the defilements . Hence , the wisdom .

All said and done , personally i have realized , that these very deep and subtle truths are far far ahead . May well take me many many innumerable life times to realize .

What i try to see , is whether the mental contents of conceit, anger , envy , hatred , lust , dullness has a diminishing return whenever i walk on the Noble Eightfold Path . This i find is happening . So i continue to walk on regardless

sanjay