Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Postby Mkoll » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:24 am

Just wanted to post the link for the essay that the OP is referring to for those who haven't read it. Excellent work as usual from Ven. Bodhi. Highly recommended.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm
Peace,
James
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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Postby SarathW » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:59 pm

Mkoll

Thanks for the link.
Good reading materials.

He said
===============

To help answer the question whether the jhānas are necessary for the attainment of the stages of awakening, we might narrow the question down by asking whether they are needed to reach the first stage of awakening, known as stream-entry (sotāpatti). Since the Nikāyas order the process of awakening into four stages -- stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship -- it is possible that the jhānas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the unfolding of the path, and not at the first stages. Thus it may be that the insight required for the earlier stages does not presuppose prior attainment of the jhānas, while the jhānas become indispensable in making the transition from one of the intermediate stages to a more advanced stage. I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikāyas that the jhānas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner.
=====================

I agree 100% with Bikkhu Bodhi in this case.
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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Postby Kumara » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:49 am

SarathW wrote:Mkoll

Thanks for the link.
Good reading materials.

He said
===============

To help answer the question whether the jhānas are necessary for the attainment of the stages of awakening, we might narrow the question down by asking whether they are needed to reach the first stage of awakening, known as stream-entry (sotāpatti). Since the Nikāyas order the process of awakening into four stages -- stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship -- it is possible that the jhānas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the unfolding of the path, and not at the first stages. Thus it may be that the insight required for the earlier stages does not presuppose prior attainment of the jhānas, while the jhānas become indispensable in making the transition from one of the intermediate stages to a more advanced stage. I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikāyas that the jhānas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner.
=====================

I agree 100% with Bikkhu Bodhi in this case.

Would be good if he can provide a firm backing instead of saying "it is possible", "it may be that", and "I myself believe".
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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Postby SarathW » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:32 am

Will this be any help?

Page 42:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf

=======================
22. Eradication of the Akusala Cittas by the four
classes of Aryan disciples.
A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts).
A Sakadàgàmi (Once-Returner), who has attained
the second stage of Sainthood, weakens the potentiality of
the 9th and 10th types of consciousness, because he has
only attenuated the two Fetters—Kàmaràga (Sense-desire)
and Pañigha (Hatred).
==========
Please compare this to page 92 diagram
=============
To me it appears above Sotapanna and Sakadagami have not attain any Jhana.
I may be wrong.
:shrug:
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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Postby Kumara » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:28 am

Sorry. I left out replying to this one earlier.

santa100 wrote:No, logic dictates that Saddhanusari and Dhammanusari will have at most: seven PLUS the remaining lifetime it takes for them to realize the fruit of stream-entry, which is NOT what SN 13.1 said. SN 13.1 precisely said "at most seven remaining lifetimes".

I wonder if I'm a bit obtuse here. I can't get your logic. Maybe we don't have the same idea of what "seven remaining lifetimes" means. Anyway, I'm content to leave this as it is. Anyway, BB has replied.

By the way, MN 14 was referenced by Ven. Bodhi in his "The Jhanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pali Suttas". He further explains:
[MN 14:]"Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen with perfect wisdom that sensual pleasures give little satisfaction and are fraught with suffering and misery, rife with greater danger, if he does not achieve a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or something more peaceful than this, then he is not beyond being enticed by sensual pleasures."

[24] The first part of this statement implies that the subject is at least a stream-enterer, for he is referred to as a "noble disciple" (ariya-sāvaka). Though the term ariya-sāvaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry, here the expression "seeing with perfect wisdom" seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer....

Translating sammappaññāya as "perfect wisdom" suggests more than what the passage says. (Shouldn't only arahants have "perfect wisdom"?) I think Aj Thanissaro's choice "right discernment" is more accurate, and needn't imply sotapatti. It can however mean having "entered on the fixed course of rightness".
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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Postby Zom » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:25 am

btw, check AN 2.36. Also about "returners" (without jhanas) and "non-returners" (with jhanas). :coffee:
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