no (khandhas)aggregates?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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robertk
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by robertk »

tilt:
But we must keep in mind: Just as "person" is a caused and conditioned construct and a way of talking about experience, ut when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void.


sorry could you clarify, is this a quote from the texts. if it is do you have the reference .
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robertk
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

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As for “other things,” we could simply, easily take this as a starting point:
The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks
.

Just as "person" is a caused and conditioned construct and a way of talking about experience, so the khandhas, fashioned from causes and conditions, empty of any thingness, are conceptual constructs used for understanding experience. So, the question is: What is meant by “really here?”
the point of that quote from the visuddhimagga is to state that ideas like people or human being are only concepts with no reality at all, whereas nama and rupa ( the khandhas) are real (albeit evanescent , conditioned and uncontrollable).
so to equate person with the khandhas is a misunderstanding of what the teaching on khandhas and anatta is about.
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tiltbillings
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tilt:
But we must keep in mind: Just as "person" is a caused and conditioned construct and a way of talking about experience, ut when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void.


sorry could you clarify, is this a quote from the texts. if it is do you have the reference .
The text was quoted above: (Vism-mhþ 824). From footnote to VM XXI 4 (Ven Nyanamoli’s translation).

When the mind/body is seen with vipassana the misapprehensions of solidity, etc that makes up what we imagine is the person to be “disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand,” leaving us with clear comprehension of our experiences as conditionality and emptiness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
the point of that quote from the visuddhimagga is to state that ideas like people or human being are only concepts with no reality at all, whereas nama and rupa ( the khandhas) are real (albeit evanescent , conditioned and uncontrollable).
so to equate person with the khandhas is a misunderstanding of what the teaching on khandhas and anatta is about.
A mirage does not have a reality?

The khandhas are "real" how? What does it mean to be real?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by robertk »

a mirage is not real, nor is a person, a human being or a unicorn. But due to delusion we may believe any of these to be real.

what is absolutely real are khandhas like feeling. Painful feeling is real but because of misapprehending it is taken as MY feeling, MY pain.
the teaching of the khandhas and anatta and conditionality let the follower of The Buddha see that it is NOT MY pain, it is simply insignificant, conditioned khandhas, that arise as they must, amd instantly cease.


You ask what it means to be real? this is something to be seen directly. Even now feeling -pleasant or neutral or painful -is arising and can be understood.
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robertk
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
tilt:
But we must keep in mind: Just as "person" is a caused and conditioned construct and a way of talking about experience, ut when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void.


sorry could you clarify, is this a quote from the texts. if it is do you have the reference .
The text was quoted above: (Vism-mhþ 824). From footnote to VM XXI 4 (Ven Nyanamoli’s translation).

When the mind/body is seen with vipassana the misapprehensions of solidity, etc that makes up what we imagine is the person to be “disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand,” leaving us with clear comprehension of our experiences as conditionality and emptiness.

I had a quick look but I cant find this in the Vism.".as "person" is a caused and conditioned construct""?
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tiltbillings
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:a mirage is not real, nor is a person, a human being or a unicorn.
A mirage is something that can be experienced, arising from causes and conditions, as with a person or a human being. The unicorn is a non-starter.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:a mirage is not real, nor is a person, a human being or a unicorn.
A mirage is something that can be experienced, arising from causes and conditions, as with a person or a human being. The unicorn is a non-starter.
I am getting lost now. a few posts back you quoted this from the Vism
The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found
,

what does "there is no human being to be found "mean in your opinion?
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tiltbillings
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
what does "there is no human being to be found mean" in your opinion?
That there is no human being as an absolute entity to found in our experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by Virgo »

I think this article by Ajahn Sujin treats the subject well

http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm

K evin
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robertk
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:a mirage is not real, nor is a person, a human being or a unicorn.
A mirage is something that can be experienced, arising from causes and conditions, as with a person or a human being. .
How does one experience a human being?
there is seeing that experiences various colors, or hearing that experiences sounds, tasting that experiences tastes, etc.
and thinking that thinks about these and may label it human. But where is human being other than as a concept.
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tiltbillings
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:a mirage is not real, nor is a person, a human being or a unicorn.
A mirage is something that can be experienced, arising from causes and conditions, as with a person or a human being. .
How does one experience a human being?
there is seeing that experiences various colors, or hearing that experiences sounds, tasting that experiences tastes, etc.
and thinking that thinks about these and may label it human. But where is human being other than as a concept.
You don't answer my questions, why should I answer yours?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SarathW
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by SarathW »

robertk wrote:

the point of that quote from the visuddhimagga is to state that ideas like people or human being are only concepts with no reality at all, whereas nama and rupa ( the khandhas) are real (albeit evanescent , conditioned and uncontrollable).
so to equate person with the khandhas is a misunderstanding of what the teaching on khandhas and anatta is about.

Hi Robertk
I agree and understand what you say above.

What I can’t understand is why do say some thing ever changing and inconstant a real.
Do you say a brick or a water bubble is real?
Do you say that the present moment awareness is real?
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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tiltbillings
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:a mirage is not real, nor is a person, a human being or a unicorn.
A mirage is something that can be experienced, arising from causes and conditions, as with a person or a human being. .
How does one experience a human being?
there is seeing that experiences various colors, or hearing that experiences sounds, tasting that experiences tastes, etc.
and thinking that thinks about these and may label it human. But where is human being other than as a concept.
You have yet to explain what is mean by "real." It is a word tossed off with no meaning attached to it, it would seem.

Interestingly, "color," "hearing," "tasting" are conceptual structures used to talk about various aspects of the flow of experience. "Human being," "person," "self" are various conceptual ways of talking about experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: no (khandhas)aggregates?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:I think this article by Ajahn Sujin treats the subject well

http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm

K evin
It is not very intertesting. Ven Nanananda's CONCEPT AND REALITY reads to be more inline with the Buddha's teachings as found in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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