There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Digity
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by Digity »

If being a non-vegan is unethical then why didn't the Buddha say you must be a vegan? Even back in the Buddha's day animals had to be slaughtered. It wasn't as bad back then, but it's still gruesome to kill an animal.

I would like to buy milk from cows that have been treated ethically, but supermarkets don't really make it easy to do so. They just give you a handful of options.

You can't guilt the universe into not wanting eggs and milk, etc. These are such staple items. What we need to do is change the practices at these factories. If you think billions of people will give up these food items tomorrow and then all the egg and milk factories will shutdown then you're dreaming. More companies that threat animals ethically need to pop up and when people start spending there money there maybe the other companies will wake up. For instance, a lot of US companies have stopped using bovine growth hormones, because people started buying organic milk which didn't use hormones. The companies got the message and stopped using it, because it effected their bottom line.

That's the only way to change their attitude. Companies think in terms of profit, profit and more profit. It's f'ed up, I get it! However, it's not going to change anytime soon. It's greed. We know how hard it is to uproot these things, right? I mean, we are Buddhist, we should have a sense of it. Either these guys will come around and learn to give up greed and want to treat all their animals more ethically or the demand for ethically treated animals will grow strong enough that the companies will have no choice, but too clean up their act. I'm not sure how realistic that it, but I do notice that interest in organic food growing....so it seems like people are getting more and more conscientious about what they put in their mouths.
mahat
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by mahat »

Digity wrote:If being a non-vegan is unethical then why didn't the Buddha say you must be a vegan? Even back in the Buddha's day animals had to be slaughtered. It wasn't as bad back then, but it's still gruesome to kill an animal.
Because it's a view that not many would take up since many people in the world eat meat -- Buddhism helps you whether or not you eat meat. There are people who live in extremely harsh places (ex.Alaska, Tibet) which did not have much agricultural land and so they also eat meat.

There was also another wrong view, that the meat itself was impure, i.e. if someone offered a sage meat, by accepting this offering of meat the sage became "impure" and lost his "practice" - this argument was nullified in the "Amagandha Sutta".
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Mkoll
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

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Digity wrote:If being a non-vegan is unethical then why didn't the Buddha say you must be a vegan? Even back in the Buddha's day animals had to be slaughtered. It wasn't as bad back then, but it's still gruesome to kill an animal.
Monks don't have much choice in what they eat because they subsist on the generosity of others. Therefore they can't be vegan because they can't make that choice. On the other hand, laypeople have a choice in what they eat, much more so today than in the Iron Age. Back then, you might have had to eat animals and animal products to subsist because it was all that was available; today, we have more than enough plant food to feed the whole world several times over and choices are endless in industrialized countries.
I would like to buy milk from cows that have been treated ethically, but supermarkets don't really make it easy to do so. They just give you a handful of options.
Then why buy the supermarket milk at all? Better to just avoid it if you don't want to support bad practices. One dollar, one vote.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

cooran wrote:India is the largest exporter of meat in the world:
Actually, what the article says is:
India is set to emerge as the world's leading beef exporter this year
Holy cow!

It's logical if you think about it. They cannot sell much beef in India, so most of it gets exported.
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

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Sam Vara
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by Sam Vara »

Mkoll:
Monks don't have much choice in what they eat because they subsist on the generosity of others. Therefore they can't be vegan because they can't make that choice.
It depends on the setting. Where monastics are given a wide variety of almsfoods, it is very easy for them to be vegan. I know several vegan monks in the UK and elsewhere. The politely refuse any non-vegan food, and supporters who know them ensure that they get what they require.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

To be fair, I think you need to give figures per head of the human population.

USA = 33,205,000 cattle slaughtered in 2013 (pop 317,128,000)
India = 37,825,000 cattle slaughtered in 2013 (pop 1,236,840,000)
Brazil = 41,060,000 cattle slaughtered in 2013 (pop 201,032,714)

I think that shows it in a fairer perspective.
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Mkoll
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

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Sam Vara wrote:Mkoll:
Monks don't have much choice in what they eat because they subsist on the generosity of others. Therefore they can't be vegan because they can't make that choice.
It depends on the setting. Where monastics are given a wide variety of almsfoods, it is very easy for them to be vegan. I know several vegan monks in the UK and elsewhere. The politely refuse any non-vegan food, and supporters who know them ensure that they get what they require.
I should have been more specific: I was speaking with the context of Ancient India in mind and of mendicants in general. Beggars can't be choosers.

Today, of course, I agree with you: many monks have the means to choose to be vegan and I'm happy to hear that you know of some who make that choice.

:anjali:
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

In Cow Dhamma:
Ledi Sayādaw wrote:Monks who try to observe the Vinaya rules, only gain purity of body and speech. They must observe the Vinaya rules since the Buddha alone is competent to promulgate them. The Vinaya rules are issued from the Buddha’s authority, that is the power of command. Monks breaking the Vinaya rules incur the guilt known as rebellion against the Buddha’s command (nāvītikkamma). This danger is always present. So when the Buddha allows meat with the three-fold purity to be taken by the monks, the monks have to obey. Moreover, the monks have to beg for food, relying on the help of the laity. They cannot refuse what has been offered on their daily almsround.
Having accepted meat or fish, eggs or milk, a monk does not have to consume it. He can share it with his fellow monks.

In my opinion, it is more important for monks (and lay people when invited by others) to practice contentment with whatever is offered. However, one should not eat food that is bad for one's health. One can usually eat a little of most things without any ill-effects. If food or (anything else) that is not allowable for monks is offered, then of course they can refuse it. If he already has sufficient, then he can also refuse it. One should not accept more than the almsbowl can hold.
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mahat
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by mahat »

As someone belonging to an Indian farmer's family, we only milked cows AFTER their baby calves were completely fed. Only then would we take the milk for ourselves. This was the ethos of most Indians before we came to the US…modern India is a whole different animal...

Milk from happy and loved cows are like ambrosia…it is so naturally sweet and nurturing…I have been fortunate to have tasted this milk... :twothumbsup: I still have some farmland back there and I hope someday I can make use of it.

If you grow a being from birth, they are like your family. To kill the animal is a breach of trust. I don't consider such people to be real farmers, if the very animals you raised can't trust you, how can I? There's no such thing as, "I bought these animals for slaughter"…
Digity
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

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I plan to switch to Organic Meadows milk. According to their FAQ the animals are treated ethically. Also, the milk actually tastes a lot better than regular milk. What are thoughts on organic milk? Seems like a good answer to the ethical question of drinking milk.
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Ben
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

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Digity wrote:I plan to switch to Organic Meadows milk. According to their FAQ the animals are treated ethically. Also, the milk actually tastes a lot better than regular milk. What are thoughts on organic milk? Seems like a good answer to the ethical question of drinking milk.
With regards to ethics - you should find out from the diary what they do with the male offspring of their lactating cows. If the male calves are sent to the slaughterhouse, them that would be something to consider.
Kind regards,
Ben
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Digity
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

Post by Digity »

Ben wrote:
Digity wrote:I plan to switch to Organic Meadows milk. According to their FAQ the animals are treated ethically. Also, the milk actually tastes a lot better than regular milk. What are thoughts on organic milk? Seems like a good answer to the ethical question of drinking milk.
With regards to ethics - you should find out from the diary what they do with the male offspring of their lactating cows. If the male calves are sent to the slaughterhouse, them that would be something to consider.
Kind regards,
Ben
Here's what they say in their FAQ:
What happens to the bull calves that are born?

Bull calves are obviously born about 50% of the time. Each of our farms are individually owned and operated so the decisions made at the farm level are up to the farmer.

When a bull calf is born our farmers have the following options:

First, they can be raised for breeding, however not many bulls are used for this purpose because they can become quite aggressive, which becomes a safety issue for small children.

Secondly, the bull calves can be raised for organic veal. Fortunately, there isn’t a large market for organic veal and our farmers don’t usually go for this option.

And lastly, which just happens to be done almost all of the time, the bull calves are raised on the family farm or sold to be raised for beef, ideally on an organic farm.
Source: http://organicmeadow.com/why_organic/faqs?s=&c=3
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Re: There's blood in your milk. The ethics of consumption

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I lived vegan for 5 years and maintained an extroardinary good health (regularly checked by my doctor). Not doing this anymore, but still avoiding milk wherever possible (added medicines, hormones etc. don't seem to be very tasty, healthy, appropriate) I mainly drink rice milk or soy milk from good environmentally aware sources. At least that's over here in germany possible.
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