Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Bankei
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Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by Bankei »

Hi

I have been wondering. Why do you think it was only Buddhism that died out in India while other religions such as Brahmanism or Hinduism or Jainism survive?

Surely the Muslim invasion should have wiped out the other 'idolatrous' religions too.

Tantric corruption doesn't adequately explain it either as Hindu trantra survived.

Any ideas?

Bankei
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Jains now consider themselves a subset of Hinduism.

Buddhism however, despite all attempts by Hindus to denote the Buddha as a God, would not be subsumed into Hinduism.

That's the 20 second answer... if you want a better answer see "Brahmanism,Buddhism & Hinduism" by Lal Mani Joshi.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brahmanism, Buddhism and Hinduism

http://www.bps.lk/wheels_library/wheels ... 50_151.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Jains now consider themselves a subset of Hinduism.

Buddhism however, despite all attempts by Hindus to denote the Buddha as a God, would not be subsumed into Hinduism.
Are you sure about that? You look at later movements in Indian Buddhists... Mahayana Buddhists worshipped Indian gods and developed practices like mantras, and in Vajrayana, this was even more true, with their elaborate tantric rituals. You could make the argument that Buddhism died out in India through assimilating itself out of existence, through mutual syncretism, where Buddhists adopted "Hindu" practices and Hindus created systems of yoga that resembled Buddhist teachings and disciplines... whereas different forms of Buddhism survived outside of India because of geographic boundaries. Everywhere that ideas exist, there is combination. Perhaps we can say that Buddhism, as saw by the Buddha, was not subsumed, but the superficial, material aspects?
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by jcsuperstar »

are jains against the caste system? where there ever jain kings who replaced hindu kings and got rid of the caste system?
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by DNS »

jcsuperstar wrote:are jains against the caste system? where there ever jain kings who replaced hindu kings and got rid of the caste system?
Yes, the Jains are against caste, just like Buddhism. I think there may have been a few Jain kings, but never long enough to get rid of the caste system.

The Jains are also non-theistic like Buddhism. The major differences are on anatta, kamma, and nibbana.

I think Jainism survived because it was more similar to Hinduism and Buddhism survived and expanded in the Mahayana form because this too was more like Hinduism, but then went to Tibet, China, and other parts of Asia.
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by MMK23 »

Jains now consider themselves a subset of Hinduism.
This is not true.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings MMK23,
MMK23 wrote:This is not true.
OK, well I'll rephrase... the Jain I know considers herself Hindu, and another friend who is Hindu (Brahman / Rig Veda) considers Jains to be Hindus too. Neither he, she, nor I, can speak for all Jains. If there's a more mainstream position, would you care to share it?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by jcsuperstar »

in india jains are considered hindu, but hinduism isnt one single religion they have many different beliefs so really hinduism is many different religions so why not jains as well?

but the point to my questions above was was jainism ever the threat to the status quo that buddhism was? and i think the answer is no.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
MMK23
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by MMK23 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings MMK23,
MMK23 wrote:This is not true.
OK, well I'll rephrase... the Jain I know considers herself Hindu, and another friend who is Hindu (Brahman / Rig Veda) considers Jains to be Hindus too. Neither he, she, nor I, can speak for all Jains. If there's a more mainstream position, would you care to share it?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Well Jainism and Hinduism are too different things. I don't know how else to put it. I guess the comparable thing is that jainism and buddhism are two different things. However, Hinduism often assimilates spiritual traditions. For example, the Buddha is considered by Hinduism to be an incarnation of Krishna, albeit one with relatively little popularity. This doesn't stop your friends from being Hindu-Jains, for sure, just as some people consider themselves Christian Buddhists or Jewish Buddhists. But Hinduism and Jainism - other than for those who practice some sort of syncretism - are worlds apart. The view that Jainism is a subset of Hinduism would be a very small minority.
Bankei
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by Bankei »

Hinduism really refers to many religions - it is an umbrella term. I have Indian friends who have expressed surprise when I claimed Jainism was a separate religion. I was told the Jains are a specific caste.

But we all know that Buddhism and Jainism are separate religions with completely different philosophies to 'hinduism' and to each other. This caliming everything is hinduism may be due to the influence of Hindu nationalists in recent years.
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Bankei
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by Bankei »

I am not sure it would be a good argument that Buddhism upset the status quo by opposing the caste system. From early on in Sri Lanka Buddhism embraced the caste system - of Buddhists did. This possibly occurred in India too because it was so entrenched in the society.

I am not sure of the Jain stance on Caste, but these days they seem to be a caste class themselves.

There is an article available which sounds interesting, but I don't have access:
Jaini, Padmanabh S. 1980 "The disappearance of Buddhism and the survival of Jainism: a study in contrast," in edited by A.K. Narain, _Studies in the History of Buddhism_ (Delhi: B.R. Publishing Corporation,
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Bankei
vitellius
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by vitellius »

There was another samana religion that once was widespread in India and died out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajivika" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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greenjuice
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by greenjuice »

Bankei wrote:Why do you think it was only Buddhism that died out in India
Just read this:

"Udayana assumed, with the Vaiseshika, that the world was formed by atoms, from which physical bodies also derived. But he was equally concerned with the mind and its right apprehension of objects in nature. His vigorous thinking was set forth in the Nyāya-Kusumānjali and the Bauddhadhikkāra, the latter an attack on the atheistic thesis of Buddhism. Living in a period of lively controversy with the Buddhists, Udayana defended his belief in a personal God by resorting to the two natures of the world: cause and effect. The presence of the world is an effect that cannot be explained by the activity of atoms alone. A supreme being had to cause the effect and regulate the activity of the atoms; hence, according to Udayana, God exists. In a debate with Buddhists in India he was the final victor. After him no Buddhist philosopher undertook again a debate with Nyāya."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udayana

:reading:
mahat
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Re: Why did Buddhism (and not Jainism etc) die out in India?

Post by mahat »

There were various reasons, however the biggest one was probably the spread of the 500 year expiration date rumor, the "Dharma declining age" was the main reason. You read the Mahayana Sutras and it's like how do you stop the Dhamma from ending? That fear started the search in Tantra, mantra and you saw the rise of the Mahayana.

The predominance of Mahayana, also proved to be a weakness since Theravada would have monks and nuns who would constantly engage the public during their alms round and speak to them about the Dhamma, whereas the Mahayana monks stopped doing that for some reason even though the Vinaya required it…they sat in their monasteries with very little interaction with the public. This allowed Brahmins to gain public support.

The international status of Buddhism brought about a huge jealousy amongst brahmins that "foreigner" Buddhists such as Hsuan-tsang could defeat the Brahmins in debate. They had fomented an uprising against the king at the time in North India, Harsh Vardhana.

Hinduism came as an Indian nationalist umbrella religion of various non-Buddhist sects who agreed to hold the brahmanical Vedas as supreme and tried to integrate Buddha into Indian religion as a Vishnu Avatar. To this day Hinduism is a nationalist movement.
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