AN 3.63 Venāga

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AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:18 am

AN 3.63 Venāga
Translated by Bhihkkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/an3.63/en/

On one occasion the Blessed One was wandering on tour among the Kosalans together with a large Saṅgha of bhikkhus when he reached the Kosalan brahmin village named Venāgapura. The brahmin householders of Venāgapura heard: “It is said that the ascetic Gotama, the son of the Sakyans who went forth from a Sakyan family, has arrived at Venāgapura. Now a good report about that Master Gotama has circulated thus: ‘That Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One. Having realized by his own direct knowledge this world with its devas, Māra, and Brahmā, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, he makes it known to others. He teaches a Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing; he reveals a spiritual life that is perfectly complete and pure.’ Now it is good to see such arahants.”

Then the brahmin householders of Venāgapura approached the Blessed One. Some paid homage to the Blessed One and sat down to one side; some exchanged greetings with him and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, sat down to one side; some reverentially saluted him and sat down to one side; some pronounced their name and clan and sat down to one side; some kept silent and sat down to one side. The brahmin Vacchagotta of Venāgapura then said to the Blessed One:

“It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama, how Master Gotama’s faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright. Just as a yellow jujube fruit in the autumn is pure and bright, so Master Gotama’s faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright. Just as a palm fruit that has just been removed from its stalk is pure and bright, so Master Gotama’s faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright. Just as an ornament of finest gold, well prepared by a skilled goldsmith and very skillfully wrought in the furnace, placed on red brocade, shines and beams and radiates, so Master Gotama’s faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright.

“Whatever high and luxurious kinds of bedding there are—that is, a sofa, a divan, a long-haired coverlet, a coverlet of diverse colors, a white coverlet, a woolen coverlet with floral designs, a quilt of cotton wool, a woolen coverlet ornamented with animal figures, a woolen coverlet with double borders, a woolen coverlet with a single border, a silken sheet studded with gems, a sheet made with silk threads and studded with gems, a dancer’s rug, an elephant rug, a horse rug, a chariot rug, a rug of antelope hide, a spread made of the hide of the kadali-deer, a bed with a canopy above and red bolsters at both ends—Master Gotama surely gains them at will, without trouble or difficulty.” [442]

“Brahmin, those high and luxurious kinds of bedding are rarely obtained by those who have gone forth, and if they are obtained, they are not allowed.

“But, brahmin, there are three kinds of high and luxurious beds that at present I gain at will, without trouble or difficulty. What three? The celestial high and luxurious bed, [443] the divine high and luxurious bed, and the noble high and luxurious bed. These are the three kinds of high and luxurious beds that at present I gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”

(1) “But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”

“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. [444] If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”

“It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a celestial high and luxurious bed?

(2) “But, Master Gotama, what is the divine high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”

“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then I dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to myself, I dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without enmity, without ill will. I dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with compassion … with a mind imbued with altruistic joy … with a mind imbued with equanimity, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to myself, I dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with equanimity, vast, exalted, measureless, without enmity, without ill will.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is divine. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is divine. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is divine. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my divine high and luxurious bed. This is that divine high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”

“It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a high and luxurious bed?

(3) “But, Master Gotama, what is the noble high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”

“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then I understand thus: ‘I have abandoned greed, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned hatred, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned delusion, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising.’ [445]

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is noble. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is noble. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is noble. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my noble high and luxurious bed. This is that noble high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”

“It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a noble high and luxurious bed?

“Excellent, Master Gotama! Excellent, Master Gotama! Master Gotama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways, as though he were turning upright what had been overthrown, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the darkness so those with good eyesight can see forms. We now go for refuge to Master Gotama, to the Dhamma, and to the Saṅgha of bhikkhus. Let Master Gotama consider us lay followers who from today have gone for refuge for life.”

Notes

[442] In translating the names of these different types of beds and their appurtenances I have relied on Horner’s translation of Vin I 192,14–19 (1951, 4:256–57). She based her renderings on Sp V 1086,1–1087,12, which corresponds to Mp II 292–93.

[443] Dibbaṃ uccāsayanamahāsayanaṃ, brahmaṃ uccāsayanamahāsayanaṃ, ariyaṃ uccāsayanamahāsayanaṃ.

[444] So ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti. Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier. The same explanation holds for the divine and the noble beds.

[445] Mp: “This shows the lust abandoned by the path of arahantship at the site of the great enlightenment. By means of reviewing he refers to the attainment of fruition.”

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:26 am

See the discussion here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 76#p257080 regarding the passage about jhana and walking.

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby equilibrium » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:27 pm

The sutta starts off with an introduction....."That Blessed One is an arahant,....." and ending with "Now it is good to see such arahants"
Can one really SEE with ones eyes?

While talking about bedding.....a very important phase later by Master Gotama:
"Brahmin, those high and luxurious kinds of bedding are rarely obtained by those who have gone forth, and if they are obtained, they are not allowed.


"But, brahmin, there are three kinds of high and luxurious beds that at present I gain at will"....they are:
1. The celestial high and luxurious bed.
2. The divine high and luxurious bed.
3. The noble high and luxurious bed.

under (1) celestial high.....is this the once-returner?
It then follows with "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state....."

under (2) divine high.....is this the non-returner?
It then follows with "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state....."
A non-returner is reborn in the pure divine abode.

Under (3) noble high.....is this the arahant?
notice the followings:
I have abandoned greed.....
I have abandoned hatred.....
I have abandoned delusion.....

It then follows with
"Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state....."

Thereafter, it doesn't matter if one is walking back and forth, standing, sitting or lie down, one is in a noble high and luxurious bed.

So what are we talking about here?.....it is certainly not the physical beds that brahmin sees and talks about.
These are in fact not the real beds. Real beds in this sutta cannot be seen with the physical eyes.....it is seen with the mind and by the mind.....It would appear they are attainments in the mind.....the state of that attainment (the cause) leading to (the effects) afterwards.

So going back to the first paragraph when it is noted: "Now it is good to see such arahants".....so can it really be seen with the physical eyes.....or is it the mind?.....States of mind, is it not?

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:34 am

Thanks for the thoughtful comments equilibrium.

I'm not sure that the "celestial" and "divine" should be read as once-returner and non-returner. The celestial described here is the jhanas and the divine the brahmaviharas ("divine abidings").
However, the "noble" does seem to be a meditative attainment only accessible to an arahant.

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:18 pm

"Now it is good to see such arahants."

I have always taken this phrase to mean that it's portentous & beneficial to approach these sorts of individuals for the sake of (over-)hearing what they might have to say.

"It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a noble high and luxurious bed?"

This is unanswered, so it seems like some sort of hyperbolic praise, though elsewhere with this sort of thing we see the phrase 'Brahman, there are not only one hundred other such monks...' which is lacking here. I find that interesting.

---

It seems some brahmins were divided on whether to hang out with samanas of an afternoon, but went anyway on account of the Buddha's reputation (or a general reputation - with some dissenting views on the matter - about samana holiness at the time, perhaps), and the Buddha's countenance led one to think that he must sleep really comfortably, whereby the Buddha let them know about bhavana that results in greater peace and repose than even high and luxurious bedding can provide. It's a lovely little sutta.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:26 pm

Thanks for those observations, Dave.

Note that Bhikkhu Bodhi classifies this sutta under "Qualities and attainments" of the Buddha in his Thematic Guide that we are following here.

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:01 pm

daverupa wrote: This is unanswered, so it seems like some sort of hyperbolic praise, though elsewhere with this sort of thing we see the phrase 'Brahman, there are not only one hundred other such monks...' which is lacking here. I find that interesting.


I think the context is a bit different in AN 3.60 versus AN 3.63. In AN 3.60 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ), Sangarava was referring to the three miracles:
"Aside from Master Gotama, is there another monk who is endowed with these three miracles? (The miracle of psychic power, the miracle of telepathy, & the miracle of instruction)"

"Brahman, there are not only one hundred other monks... two... three... four... five hundred other monks: the monks who are endowed with these three miracles are many more than that.".

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:53 pm

santa100 wrote:I think the context is a bit different in AN 3.60 versus AN 3.63.


Sure, but in general the phrase has additional input, e.g. MN 73. There, the question is asked how many monks have attained various noble attainments, and the response is similar.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:35 pm

Again, the context of MN 73 ( http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ta-e1.html ), Vacchagotta was referring to the fruit of arahantship which is not unique to the Buddha. However, in MN 111 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ), Sariputta was described:
“He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish."

which Ven. Bodhi noted:
This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:02 pm

So, do you claim that brahmaviharas, jhanas, or release, are exclusive to the Buddha? Because otherwise the contexts do not differ in that way, as far as I can tell.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:20 pm

Brahmaviharas, jhanas, or release are certainly not exclusive to the Buddha. But obviously AN 3.63 did not ask about that. The exact quote was:
It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a noble high and luxurious bed?


Had it been phrased simply as: "It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain such a noble high and luxurious bed?" then I would've agreed with you..

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:28 pm

MN 119 wrote:"Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten?

...

[4] "He can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas — heightened mental states providing a pleasant abiding in the here & now.


:shrug:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:40 pm

MN 119:
He can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas


Versus:
AN 3.63:
But, Master Gotama, what is the noble high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?

“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then I understand thus: ‘I have abandoned greed, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned hatred, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned delusion, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising.’445

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is noble. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is noble. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is noble. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my noble high and luxurious bed. This is that noble high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby SarathW » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:02 pm

This is definitely astounding and amazing!
============
First time I read that you can walk in Jhana!
Is this literal walking or a state of mind?
I think it is both.
==================

Equilibrium said:
it is certainly not the physical beds that brahmin sees and talks about.
================
Say if you are dream less sleeping in a luxurios bed. You would not know that you are sleeping in a bed.
The same way when a person is in fourth Jhana, his mental, verbal and bodily fabrications are ceased.
So it is something like deep sleep except a person is in full awareness.

:shrug:

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:40 am

santa100 wrote:MN 119:
He can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas


Versus:
AN 3.63:
But, Master Gotama, what is the noble high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?

“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then I understand thus: ‘I have abandoned greed, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned hatred, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned delusion, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising.’445

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is noble. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is noble. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is noble. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my noble high and luxurious bed. This is that noble high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty


So it is not the brahmaviharas or jhanas, but the release, which you are here taking to be unique to the Buddha?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:34 am

daverupa wrote: So it is not the brahmaviharas or jhanas, but the release, which you are here taking to be unique to the Buddha?


How many times have I said that "uniqueness" isn't the issue here? If you could point out any passage saying the disciple can gain, and not just gain, but gain at will, without trouble or difficulty the noble high and luxurious bed just like the Buddha then I'll be all ears..

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:22 am

santa100 wrote:
daverupa wrote: So it is not the brahmaviharas or jhanas, but the release, which you are here taking to be unique to the Buddha?


How many times have I said that "uniqueness" isn't the issue here? If you could point out any passage saying the disciple can gain, and not just gain, but gain at will, without trouble or difficulty the noble high and luxurious bed just like the Buddha then I'll be all ears..


Well, I was thinking you might be talking about a distinction between an arahant and the Buddha, e.g. MN 1 (though I don't think this is equivalent to our case here). Is this on the right track, or are you simply going to insist that this specific metaphor is a special Buddha metaphor? If so, what does that mean, for you? I'm somewhat at a loss...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:48 am

Well, what I meant was quite simple and as a direct response to your first post in this thread where you seemed to say any disciple could gain, and not just gain, but gain at will, without trouble or difficulty the noble high and luxurious bed just like the Buddha. If it wasn't what you meant, then sorry for the miscommunication. But if it was, then I haven't found any reference in the Canon to support that, thus my question for you to see if you have any luck finding one to back up what you said?

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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:10 am

santa100 wrote:you seemed to say any disciple could gain, and not just gain, but gain at will, without trouble or difficulty the noble high and luxurious bed just like the Buddha. If it wasn't what you meant, then sorry for the miscommunication.


I'm utterly baffled, can you cite the words that led you to this conclusion? Specifically, the apparent (??) idea you have that I have claimed that disciples must exert no effort?

...just baffled...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:32 am

Here is your post:
daverupa wrote: "It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a noble high and luxurious bed?"

This is unanswered, so it seems like some sort of hyperbolic praise, though elsewhere with this sort of thing we see the phrase 'Brahman, there are not only one hundred other such monks...' which is lacking here. I find that interesting.


By "hyperbolic praise" you seemed to imply "exaggerated" praise. The "one hundred other such monks" part seems to imply the disciples should automatically be included in AN 3.63 just like the Buddha. I'm just as utterly baffled by that!! Anyway, if that's not what you intended, then do you agree that disciples can "gain", but NOT "gain at will, without trouble or difficulty", such a noble high and luxurious bed like the Buddha?


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