Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

[Prasadachitta]

Hi all,

I thought I would start this thread to address some things I was trying to discuss in the closed thread. There are some teachings within religious tradition which seem to me are clearly causing the world a great deal of strife.

1)Telling people they will burn in eternal hell fire for not engaging in certain rights and rituals.

2)Teaching people that the ethnicity one is born into can make you so impure that to even touch you brings evil and curses on you and your family

3)Teaching that acts of murderous aggression in the name of a creator god can bring you eternal happiness

I think there are many more but these three alone are prominent enough to have direct and detrimental influence on the daily lives of hundreds of millions if not billions of people.

I think if we pay attention with kindness we can not but feel that it is critically important to look for any effective opportunity to lessen peoples confidence in such beliefs. Is it really all that appropriate to simply say that such and such religion is just different than your own not better or worse when there are teachings which seem so obviously not in peoples best interest?

HMMMM?

Gabe

[Cittasanto]

There is tollerance and then there is not trying to understand where the beliefs come from and how they are held and what can be done so that these beliefs don't inpact negatively on anyone.

as in all likelihood no-one who holds such beliefs will be members here how would discussing and speculating help?

[Mawkish1983]

Is there a "here we go again" smiley?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Simply put, tolerance means being tolerant of something. It doesn't necessarily mean liking it, or even accepting it... merely that you tolerate it, you put up with it, you endure it... you allow it to be. Tolerance is good practice... only when you're not wanting to change things are you content with how things are.



Metta,
Retro.

[appicchato]

...only when you're not wanting to change things are you content with how things are.

[tiltbillings]

Simply put, tolerance means being tolerant of something. It doesn't necessarily mean liking it, or even accepting it... merely that you tolerate it, you put up with it, you endure it... you allow it to be. Tolerance is good practice... only when you're not wanting to change things are you content with how things are.

Actually, we human tolerate a lot things we do not like so much but have no choice in the matter as to whatever-it-might-be's existence. Can't do anything about it, so we tolerate it, though we might complain a bit. Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.

[tiltbillings]

Is there a "here we go again" smiley?

Actualy, see what you can do with your copy machine and I am sure one of the computer wizards here can turn it into a smilie type thingie for us to use with just with your face rather than one of those annoying (but having no choice I have tolerate them) stupid yellow things we see on the right side of the screen that people put into their msgs thinking it all so clever of them to use.

[appicchato]

Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.

[tiltbillings]

Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.

Like dukkha.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.

By what criteria would these be determined?

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Tilt,

Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.

By what criteria would these be determined?

Damdifino. We some time tolerate a racist joke told in a group of people, but should we? Probably depends upon the context. You know the expression Jim Crow Laws? This is something from US history. Whites only laws found in the South. Eventually enough people found them intolerable, found the strength to speak out against them.

[Ben]

Hi Tilt,

Actualy, see what you can do with your copy machine and I am sure one of the computer wizards here can turn it into a smilie type thingie for us to use with just with your face rather than one of those annoying (but having no choice I have tolerate them) stupid yellow things we see on the right side of the screen that people put into their msgs thinking it all so clever of them to use.

Go easy mate! My young son visits these forums and he just loves those smileys so much that I have to restrain him from inserting more than one per line. Having said that, I am no fan of the little horrors (smileys, NOT eight year olds!).
Kind regards

Ben

[kannada]

Hi all,

I thought I would start this thread to address some things I was trying to discuss in the closed thread. There are some teachings within religious tradition which seem to me are clearly causing the world a great deal of strife.

1)Telling people they will burn in eternal hell fire for not engaging in certain rights and rituals.

2)Teaching people that the ethnicity one is born into can make you so impure that to even touch you brings evil and curses on you and your family

3)Teaching that acts of murderous aggression in the name of a creator god can bring you eternal happiness

I think there are many more but these three alone are prominent enough to have direct and detrimental influence on the daily lives of hundreds of millions if not billions of people.

I think if we pay attention with kindness we can not but feel that it is critically important to look for any effective opportunity to lessen peoples confidence in such beliefs. Is it really all that appropriate to simply say that such and such religion is just different than your own not better or worse when there are teachings which seem so obviously not in peoples best interest?

HMMMM?

Gabe

Hi Gabe,

I think we'd just end up being intolerant of intolerance...

All the best

k

[tiltbillings]

A Mawkish1983 smilie would be great. Eight year olds using smilies is a thing of goodness.



Now, I got that out of my system, I feel better.

[christopher:::]

LOL, i wonder how our communication might go if we were restricted only to the single original smiley...



Concerning tolerance, isnt the essential distinction internal, not external? We do indeed need to speak up about racism, militarism, xenophobia, religious violence and all the other crazy things humans do...

But how are you feeling about that, how are you thinking about it? If you find yourself constantly spinning thoughts and emotions related to these crazy things, the dukkha of others, that dukkha now becomes your dukkha as well.

Wise compassionate action without attachment or aversion, while difficult, seems optimal.

[Ben]

Hi Christopher,

But how are you feeling about that, how are you thinking about it? If you find yourself constantly spinning thoughts and emotions related to these crazy things, the dukkha of others, that dukkha now becomes your dukkha as well.

The pedantic wretch in me says: Technically... no! One's own dukkha is born from one's own kamma.
Having said that, I don't mean we should do nothing when some horror is unleashed upon ourselves or others.

I do know what you mean. Equanimity is a path factor for a very good reason.
Metta

Ben

[Ben]

Thanks Tilt

A Mawkish1983 smilie would be great. Eight year olds using smilies is a thing of goodness.



Now, I got that out of my system, I feel better.

I'll be sure young Quinn gets to see your handiwork the next time we[re both on together. and given my work commitments for the coming 48 hours, it could be a few days away!
Cheers

Ben

[christopher:::]

Hi Christopher,

But how are you feeling about that, how are you thinking about it? If you find yourself constantly spinning thoughts and emotions related to these crazy things, the dukkha of others, that dukkha now becomes your dukkha as well.

The pedantic wretch in me says: Technically... no! One's own dukkha is born from one's own kamma.
Having said that, I don't mean we should do nothing when some horror is unleashed upon ourselves or others.

I do know what you mean. Equanimity is a path factor for a very good reason.
Metta

Ben

Hi Ben! Technically speaking, given that the "self" is an illusion of sorts, isn't there also a collective element to karma and dukkha, in that its born of our interactions, reactions, responses, etc?

[Prasadachitta]

There is tollerance and then there is not trying to understand where the beliefs come from and how they are held and what can be done so that these beliefs don't inpact negatively on anyone.

as in all likelihood no-one who holds such beliefs will be members here how would discussing and speculating help?

Hi Manapa,
I think some teachings inherently tend to impact negatively on people.

No, it is not likely that anyone here will hold these beliefs. However it seems that some people here overlook aspects within religious tradition that in my view are often very harmful to the practitioner and people who are not practitioners. I am in total agreement with defining religious tolerance as the cultivation of non aversion in the face of things we either do not understand or that we simply disagree with. That is why I said "I think if we pay attention with kindness we can not but feel that it is critically important to look for any effective opportunity to lessen peoples confidence in such beliefs."

This is not really a matter of speculation. I have a number of friends who were born into the Dalit class in India. Even though they have converted to Buddhism they still have to interact with people who's religion has taught that they are virtually cursed with impurity.

Kindly

Gabe

[Jechbi]

Hi Tilt,

Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.

It's not a matter of "should" or "should not." It's a matter of seeing things as they are and recognizing our own reaction to that. Reacting with contentment and judging that mindstate as "good," hoping it will last, is dukkha. Reacting with discontentment is dukkha. Reacting to dukkha itself with more discontentment is even more dukkha. Retro hit the nail on the head with his post.




Hi Christopher,

Hi Ben! Technically speaking, given that the "self" is an illusion of sorts, isn't there also a collective element to karma and dukkha, in that its born of our interactions, reactions, responses, etc?

Technically speaking, it doesn't matter with regard to practice. To what extent can any of us control another, and how much effort should we exert trying to do so? Those questions need to be answered on a case-by-case basis, and the answer we come up with will always be our own kamma. We always have the same localized basis for practice, here and now. But we can look to mudita to have a better understanding of this "illusion" of self versus others.