Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

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Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby greenjuice » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:43 am

Consciousness or vinnana is one of the khandhas and of course is not eternal. The citta is eternal. Just remember what the Lord Buddha said, the Thatagata after dead neither is nor is not. The citta is not individualistic, not personal. How could the Lord Buddha talk to Acharn Mun presenting Dhamma to him in the form of the Lord
Buddha, if there is nothing that is eternal and everything dies away? We grasp the term citta wrongly, we think every beeing has a citta, no that is not right, every being is part of that one citta, that is eternal.


http://www.theravada-dhamma.org/pdf/Aja ... anatta.pdf

Does anyone know what is meant here- how did the Lord Buddha talk to Acharn Mun?
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Mkoll » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:58 am

In Ven. Mun's biography written by Ven. Bua, there are all sorts of interesting stories about Ven. Mun being visited by devas, Buddhas, arahants, etc. It's available for free download here. It's worth the read just to learn about the incredible determination of monks like Ajahn Mun, really awe-inspiring.
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Sokehi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:24 am

I've read this book only halfways but instead of encouragement for practice out of it I was disheartened by all these visits of Devas and superworldly stuff like that. I'm not saying I don't believe in it or that I believe in it... it just doesn't matter to me at all. I just found as much as helpful to my practice as discussions about the end of the universe or the recent soccer results.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:13 am

greenjuice wrote:How did the Lord Buddha talk to Acharn Mun?


Perhaps while the latter was undergoing an hallucination or pleasant snooze.


    “Bhikkhus, just as when the stalk of a bunch of mangoes has been cut, all the mangoes on it go with it, just so the Tathāgata’s link with becoming has been cut. As long as the body subsists, devas and humans will see him. But at the breaking-up of the body and the exhaustion of the life-span, devas and humans will see him no more.
    — Brahmajāla Sutta
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Sokehi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:17 am

:goodpost:
Dear Bhante it amazes me how rapidly you produce so very often some well fitting sutta quotes, thank you!
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:55 pm

Well I had a dream where I spoke briefly with the Buddha and observed him in action. Now if that doesn't seem like a mind-blowing, Dhamma-shattering occurance (that was just a dream, we might suppose, anything can happen in a dream), why should it be so outrageous that Ajahn Mun had a conversation with the Buddha in a meditative state of some sort? We might say "well that's just the imaginings of one's own mind then, that's all... " or we might think there is a bit more to it than that. Either way, there's the question of whether it imparted something valuable that you did not know before.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:31 pm

kirk5a wrote:Either way, there's the question of whether it imparted something valuable that you did not know before.


In the present case what was principally imparted in the Buddha’s alleged revelations to Ajahn Mun was divine confirmation that the manner of monastic practice in Thailand, and especially in the Dhammayuttika Nikāya, and most especially at Wat Pa Baan Taad (Ajahn Maha Bua’s monastery) was exactly like that of arahant bhikkhus in the Buddha’s day — a confirmation so suspiciously convenient that at times I would find myself reminded of Strachey’s charming account of Cardinal Wiseman:


    He devoted much time and attention to the ceremonial details of his princely office. His knowledge of rubric and ritual, and of the symbolical significations of vestments, has rarely been equalled, and he took a profound delight in the ordering and the performance of elaborate processions. During one of these functions, an unexpected difficulty arose: the Master of Ceremonies suddenly gave the word for a halt, and, on being asked the reason, replied that he had been instructed that moment by special revelation to stop the procession. The Cardinal, however, was not at a loss. ‘You may let the procession go on,’ he smilingly replied. ‘I have just obtained permission, by special revelation, to proceed with it.’
    — Lytton Strachey, Eminent Victorians


Like the cardinal with his ‘special revelations’, Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself.
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Sokehi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:36 pm

"Like the cardinal with his ‘special revelations’, Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself."

This ! attitude or social mechanism within religious organisations has sometimes caused a lot of trouble let alone cruelty - a greater being said this to me therefore I'm allowed to do this. That is exactly why I stopped reading these biograhies or basically every bio that I came across in the past years that are so very popular in Thailand.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:44 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Like the cardinal with his ‘special revelations’, Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself.

What, exactly, did Ajahn Maha Bua actually justify in this way?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby rohana » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:20 pm

Sokehi wrote::goodpost:
Dear Bhante it amazes me how rapidly you produce so very often some well fitting sutta quotes, thank you!


Indeed. Quite glad to see you posting more frequently, Bhante!

:anjali:
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby robertk » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:15 pm

There was a large debate about whether Mun was an arahant.


In the World Fellowship of Buddhists Magazine, nyanaponika wrote a letter to the editor
VolXIII no1 (BE2519/1976)
From Nyanaponika Mahathera
Forest Hermitage Kandy, Ceylon
Commenting on the bio of A.Mun.

"..the shock I felt when reading the statement in the 4th section (p.135) that "a number of Buddhas togther with their arahant disciples" had paid a visit to the Acharn to "offer their congratulations upon his achievement". The controversy that understandably arises upon such a statement can I think be conclusively and decisively settled..[he then quotes sutta passagae ] Obviously , the statements abscribed to venerable Acharn Mun are in contradication with the afore quoted sutta passage. There are also conflicts with other well-known utterances of the Master on the nature of Tathagatha, on Nibbana, and the khandhas..Admirers [of acharn Mun] will have to face the dilemma and solve it for themselves, honestly without misinterpreting the Buddha- word
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby robertk » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:16 pm

The World Fellowship of Buddhists (in Sukhumvit road) were distributing A. Muns
biography and they serialized it. They were not at all happy with Venerable Nyanaponika's criticisim
of A. Mun. So the editor published a lengthy reply.
THis is some of the published reply:


"To Ven. Nyanaponika mahathera, Forest Hermitage, Kandy
I have received your letter dated december 1975 strongly criticising the biography of the venerable meditation master phra acharn Mun Bhuridatto. It did not come as surprise that the English version should be no less controversial than its Thai counterpart.. [it was]strongly criticised by a number or readers who could not tolerate what was contradictory to their former belief. Some of them I dare say did so out of sheer jealousy and to flatter their own egotism and vanity rather than out of genuine doubt. To such people no amount of reasoning or explanation will help. They are not seekers after Truth but are like Sanjaya and the six teachers (makkhali Gosala and others), and cannot bear to see others stand out more prominent than they do. AS far as your letter is concerned I would say that your viewpoints expressed therin are, to say the least, too strong and intolerant. <.....>

I do not understand why so many Buddhists prefer to idolize the concept of Absolute Nothingness or Total Loss like that of the materialists and attribute it to teh cessation of suffering or Nibbana. What benefit is there in clinging to the nihilist idea of nothingness, hoplessness or bleakness like that? To be well versed in the Tipitaka is never enough. That is only pariyatti, which could become a hindrance and even a snake killing whoever makes a religion or God of it. This attitude towards book- learning, unsupported by firsthand experience through practice, is called agaladdupara pariyatti. It can be another Net of Wrong View. The pariyatti or book learning may earn the students such grandiose terms as Maha, pandita etc, yet it is memory work, speculation, imgination, anything but firsthand experience or attainment. Such being the case who is in a position to misinterpret the Buddha's word. Those admirers[of book study] will have to face the dilemma and admit the incompleteness of such book-study and the delusion of high-sounding titles such as Maha, pandita ect."

<....>Nibbana, unlike the materialists death, does not end all. If acceptance of this fact should bring the Theravdins a bit closer to the Mahayanists then it is to be willingly accepted. After all it is better than a concept that brings us closer to the materialists isnt it."
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby robertk » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:25 pm

I always wondered how the ven. acharn could be taken seriously but try giving even a slight criticism of maha bua (let alone Ajarn Mun)to thai people and they will be shocked. They really have this devotee mindset to famous monks:dis the Tipitika if you like, but never our big monks.
the Burmese will get upset about both.
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Mkoll » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:03 am

Very interesting, thanks robertk.

From reading Ajahn Bua's biography of Ajahn Mun, one clearly gets the impression, and the admission by Ven. Bua himself, that he was a fiery character, to say the least. I've rarely seen so much self-deprecation in any work. Maybe it's a cultural thing?

Regardless of whether Ajahn Mun was an arahant or deluded or whatever, I still admire the intensity with which he trained himself, even if only half of those anecdotes were true.

:anjali:
Peace,
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby robertk » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:47 am

yes he lived an austere life and respected the Vinaya (although enjoyed smoking ).
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:36 am

kirk5a wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:Like the cardinal with his ‘special revelations’, Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself.

What, exactly, did Ajahn Maha Bua actually justify in this way?
The interesting thing about Maha Bua's biography of Ajahn Mun is that other students of Ajahn Mun strongly disagreed with the portrayal of Ajan Mun by Maha Bua. Sadly, it is Maha Bua's biography with which we are stuck. What is interesting about the biography is that in it we can see how the Mahayana, in it religious splendor, arose.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby robertk » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:59 am

do you have the citations where the other followers of Mun disagreed with Mahabua. i would appreciate having those.
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:18 am

robertk wrote:do you have the citations where the other followers of Mun disagreed with Mahabua. i would appreciate having those.
I do not, though they might be mentioned in other threads on this forum. it was a topic of discussion on the now very dead Grey Forum, and a particular student of Ajahn Mun was quoted as disagreeing with Maha Boowa's biography/hagiography.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Jon. S » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:18 am

In Maha Boowa's biography, Samana, he also talks in-detail about his enlightenment.. I've always been kind of confused about that point. Aren't bhikkhus prohibited from speaking of attainments?
I was born naked.
My beloved parents
kindly gave me a name.
When I reached twenty
I thought "a name is a chain,
I want to abandon it".
Whoever I questioned
No one answers me.
When I hear the wind in the pines
I get an answer.
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby rohana » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:20 am

robertk wrote:I do not understand why so many Buddhists prefer to idolize the concept of Absolute Nothingness or Total Loss like that of the materialists and attribute it to teh cessation of suffering or Nibbana. What benefit is there in clinging to the nihilist idea of nothingness, hoplessness or bleakness like that? To be well versed in the Tipitaka is never enough. That is only pariyatti, which could become a hindrance and even a snake killing whoever makes a religion or God of it. This attitude towards book- learning, unsupported by firsthand experience through practice, is called agaladdupara pariyatti. It can be another Net of Wrong View. The pariyatti or book learning may earn the students such grandiose terms as Maha, pandita etc, yet it is memory work, speculation, imgination, anything but firsthand experience or attainment. Such being the case who is in a position to misinterpret the Buddha's word. Those admirers[of book study] will have to face the dilemma and admit the incompleteness of such book-study and the delusion of high-sounding titles such as Maha, pandita ect."

<....>Nibbana, unlike the materialists death, does not end all. If acceptance of this fact should bring the Theravdins a bit closer to the Mahayanists then it is to be willingly accepted. After all it is better than a concept that brings us closer to the materialists isnt it."


Well, the Buddha was accused of being an annihilationist too, so there's that. :coffee:
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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