Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:21 pm

BlackBird wrote: It is possible that quite like the Mahayana Maha Boowa has placed these quite doctrinally radical (i.e. not found in the Sutta Pitaka) ideas in the mouth of someone whom he has then elevated to Sainthood (Ajahn Mun).

One thing which would strongly count against such a reckless speculation would be The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas, composed by Ajahn Mun himself.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/ballad.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:41 pm

Dhammanando wrote:In my diary entries for 1986 there are dozens of examples, but unfortunately the diary is in storage and not presently accessible to me. For now just a couple of brief illustrations...

Ok thanks for sharing Venerable. Eyebrow shaving, sandal thongs, and conservative political views of older monks at Baan Taad. I am not yet convinced how terrible that all is.

I wonder, from your year’s stay at Baan Taad, was there anything you found inspiring about Ajahn Maha Bua, or any teaching he gave which you found valuable?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:52 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:In my diary entries for 1986 there are dozens of examples, but unfortunately the diary is in storage and not presently accessible to me. For now just a couple of brief illustrations...

Ok thanks for sharing Venerable. Eyebrow shaving, sandal thongs, and conservative political views of older monks at Baan Taad. I am not yet convinced how terrible that all is.
not yet convinced how terrible that all is? I think you missed something -- as in the main point -- in what Ven Dhammanando said.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:14 pm

kirk5a wrote:
BlackBird wrote: It is possible that quite like the Mahayana Maha Boowa has placed these quite doctrinally radical (i.e. not found in the Sutta Pitaka) ideas in the mouth of someone whom he has then elevated to Sainthood (Ajahn Mun).

One thing which would strongly count against such a reckless speculation would be The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas, composed by Ajahn Mun himself.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/ballad.html
The point you are making here is that some of Ajahn Mun's teachings are clearly not found in, or supported by, the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:19 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The point you are making here is that some of Ajahn Mun's teachings are clearly not found in, or supported by, the suttas.

No that is not the point I'm making. That's another question altogether.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:19 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The point you are making here is that some of Ajahn Mun's teachings are clearly not found in, or supported by, the suttas.

No that is not the point I'm making. That's another question altogether.
Than what point are you making?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:20 pm

Hi Jack,

The various threads on Tantric Theravada may be of interest in terms of the background of the various influences that exist in SE Asian Buddhism:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 03&start=0
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6599
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=833

I recall Ven Gavesako, and others, posting interesting links to discussions on how the various folk influences, along with some Mahayana influences, were suppressed in SE Asia in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, e.g. with the establishment of the Dhammayuttika monastic order by King Monkut. From that point of view, it's not so much that the various Buddhist strands have recently infiltrated SE Asia, but that they were suppressed for a time.

I'm sure Ven Gavesako and Tilt can dig out some of the specific references I'm thinking of, since, as you say, we've discussed before these possible influences on the Forest Ajahns, such as Ajahn Mun.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:24 pm

Here is Ven Gavesako's thead that I couldn't find earlier:
How Theravada is Theravada? Exploring Buddhist Identities
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=12929
See also http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 62&start=0
Bangkok Post wrote:What then is the thing that we have recently started to call "Theravada Buddhism"? Skilling concludes, rather warily that it is "a monastic lineage and a textual transmission of ethics, metaphysics, narratives _ the Pali canon and the ritual practices of monasticism and liturgy." But then he adds: "The history of Theravada is one of diversity and innovation." The changes in everyday practice are just as important as the constancy of the texts in keeping Theravada Buddhism alive and well through centuries, and any definition can only be, in Handlin's phrase, "a kaleidoscopic work in progress." The recent invention of the term "Theravada Buddhism" is a prime example of the innovation in response to changing circumstances that Skilling suggests is key to the tradition's longevity.

"Kaleidoscopic work in progress" is perhaps relevant to the subject matter of this thread...

:anjali:
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:26 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Jack,

The various threads on Tantric Theravada may be of interest in terms of the background of the various influences that exist in SE Asian Buddhism:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10503&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6599
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=833

I recall Ven Gavesako, and others, posting interesting links to discussions on how the various folk influences, along with some Mahayana influences, were suppressed in SE Asia in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, e.g. with the establishment of the Dhammayuttika monastic order by King Monkut. From that point of view, it's not so much that the various Buddhist strands have recently infiltrated SE Asia, but that they were suppressed for a time.

I'm sure Ven Gavesako and Tilt can dig out some of the specific references I'm thinking of, since, as you say, we've discussed before these possible influences on the Forest Ajahns, such as Ajahn Mun.

:anjali:
Mike
Also, add to this that Buddhadasa translated into Thai several Mahayana works such as the Zen Platform Sutra. It would an interesting thing to try to tease out the origins of the various threads that give as the very un-Theravadin notions we find in Maha Bua's hagiography and in aspects of the Thai forest traditions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Than what point are you making?

That Jack's baseless speculation that Ajahn Maha Bua "has placed these quite doctrinally radical (i.e. not found in the Sutta Pitaka) ideas in the mouth of" Ajahn Mun is plainly contradicted by the writing of Ajahn Mun himself, where the very things which one might suppose to be "doctrinally radical" appear.

I don't agree they are "doctrinally radical" in the first place, but that's another question.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:48 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Than what point are you making?

That Jack's baseless speculation that Ajahn Maha Bua "has placed these quite doctrinally radical (i.e. not found in the Sutta Pitaka) ideas in the mouth of" Ajahn Mun is plainly contradicted by the writing of Ajahn Mun himself, where the very things which one might suppose to be "doctrinally radical" appear.

I don't agree they are "doctrinally radical" in the first place, but that's another question.
Does Aj Mun go as far as afield from standard Theravada doctrine and what is found in the suttas as we find Maha Bua going? But what we do find quite radical are supposed the visitations of the Buddha and the arahants/cittas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:13 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Than what point are you making?

That Jack's baseless speculation that Ajahn Maha Bua "has placed these quite doctrinally radical (i.e. not found in the Sutta Pitaka) ideas in the mouth of" Ajahn Mun is plainly contradicted by the writing of Ajahn Mun himself, where the very things which one might suppose to be "doctrinally radical" appear.

I don't agree they are "doctrinally radical" in the first place, but that's another question.


Not agreeing with it and being able to support your assertion are two different things also.

Anyone being honest with themselves who has read both the biography and most of the Nikayas would come to a similar view point: There are many elements within the biography which contradict the word of the Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka. I will happily if you desire, over the coming months make a re-reading of the biography, and then make lists of sutta quotes to contradict each point of contention I find, by memory there were many.

As for the theory of Ajahn Maha Boowa using Ajahn Mun as a literary device to implant his ideas, I don't think that's a baseless speculation at all, and I'm sorry you found it offensive, but people are allowed to express ideas here, not all of which you will agree with.

As for your posting of the 'Ballad of Liberation' as supposed proof of otherwise. I will address two points, the first is found within the introduction and requires little further discussion:

Translating the poem has presented a number of difficulties, not the least of which has been getting a definitive reading of the original manuscript. Ajaan Mun wrote during the days before Thai spelling became standardized, some of the passages were smudged with age, and a few seem to have been "corrected" by a later hand.


The second point is this:
The only thing I see that really relates to the problems I find between Ajahn Maha Boowa's doctrine and the Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka in the poem is this idea of the primal mind. However in the poem this idea is not much elaborated upon as it is by Ajahn Maha Boowa, mere mention of the primal mind is not enough to convince me (or should it anyone else with a critical thinking faculty) that Ajahn Mun was the espouser of the doctrine found in the biography. After all, I could hunt out a sutta that speaks of the mind be essentially illuminant, but that it is clouded by the defilements, that sounds quite similar in my mind to Ajahn Mun's use of primal mind - But that doesn't mean that consciousness or any other aspect of the being continues after paranibbana in such a way that it can ascend into 'nibbana realm' and descend at will, and can communicate with other beings and congratulate new arahants, and such a radical - Yes radical - idea finds no support in either the Sutta Pitaka nor in the Poem by Ajahn Mun, but it is espoused by Ven. Maha Boowa in the biography.

In the poem, Ven. Mun states: "Inconstancy is a feature of the heart itself" so then at least to him the heart was anicca, and thus a dhamma - a thing. Ven. Maha Boowa on the other hand seems to have settled on the idea that the citta is not a dhamma, that it does not exist and so is permanent - That is something we do not find in Ajahn Mun's writings.

I think if anything the poem just shows further that there is enough evidence in my opinion to warrant the theory that the Ajahn Mun of actuality and the Ajahn Mun presented in Ven. Maha Boowa's biography are two different kettle of fish, and if that is so - Then the Ajahn Mun of the biography had to come from somewhere, and if not history, then someone's or some group's imagination.

With metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:52 pm

Mike wrote:Hi Jack,

The various threads on Tantric Theravada may be of interest in terms of the background of the various influences that exist in SE Asian Buddhism:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 03&start=0
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6599
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=833

I recall Ven Gavesako, and others, posting interesting links to discussions on how the various folk influences, along with some Mahayana influences, were suppressed in SE Asia in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, e.g. with the establishment of the Dhammayuttika monastic order by King Monkut. From that point of view, it's not so much that the various Buddhist strands have recently infiltrated SE Asia, but that they were suppressed for a time.


Thanks Mike, I will dig through these later today. As the paper I post below makes note, there have been Mahayana influences upon Thai Buddhism for many centuries. Even today there are popular Mahayana Bodhisattvas (Avalokiteśvara) that some Thai people pray to, although of note is the fact that that particular fella finds worship in Burma and Sri Lanka also. Point is Thai Buddhism is not quite as homogeneously Theravada as people might like to think. :)

tiltbillings wrote:Also, add to this that Buddhadasa translated into Thai several Mahayana works such as the Zen Platform Sutra.


Yeah, I posted this link in a previous post, but I think it may have gotten lost in the mileau:
http://www.fgu.edu.tw/~buddhist/chinese ... 20/010.pdf

It's a really interesting paper on Mahayanic influences on Buddhadasa's thought and doctrine.

It would an interesting thing to try to tease out the origins of the various threads that give as the very un-Theravadin notions we find in Maha Bua's hagiography and in aspects of the Thai forest traditions.


Yes, that's the idea I am trying to get at here.

metta guys
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Dhammanando » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:Ok thanks for sharing Venerable. Eyebrow shaving, sandal thongs, and conservative political views of older monks at Baan Taad. I am not yet convinced how terrible that all is.


Well, I did in fact say as much myself when I wrote:
"The things that he justified by the latter means, when considered individually, will no doubt appear to most people as trifling and innocuous, perhaps even amusing."

But what might be viewed as "terrible" —or at least very insalubrious— is the conceit-promoting cumulative effect of dozens of instances like the above. To quote myself again:
The general thrust, however, was not so, for it served to justify and promote: (1) an ugly nationalism ... (2) support of far-right authoritarian government (as a consequence of that nationalism); (3) nikāya chauvinism ... and (4) exaltation of self ...

kirk5a wrote:I wonder, from your year’s stay at Baan Taad, was there anything you found inspiring about Ajahn Maha Bua, or any teaching he gave which you found valuable?


There weren't any teachings on Dhamma that I found valuable.

Nonetheless there were a number of things about Ajahn Maha Bua himself that made a lasting positive impression on me, mostly relating to the ajahn's uncompromising commitment to Buddhist ascesis and the general way that he ordered his monastery, which is among the best I've ever seen. For example, MB refused to give in to pressure from rich, well-meaning Bangkok lay supporters who wanted to make merit by "developing" the wat (i.e. by making it a more luxurious place). He wouldn't allow them to install electricity or running water or to hire contractors to build luxury concrete kutis or other buildings — everything had to be built of wood and by the monks themselves.

He also imposed this standard on those of his disciples who went off to start wats of their own. I remember there was one senior monk who had founded a new forest wat and was "developing" it in ways that went against MB's ideas of what is appropriate (e.g. building a concrete sala with a marble floor). Moreover the errant disciple was raising funds for these developments by constantly boasting to the laity about the fact that MB was his teacher. When MB heard of all this he not only disowned the disciple but for several weeks would end all his sermons to laypeople with the words: "...and one more thing. I want you to know that Ajahn X is no disciple of mine." (It reminded me of how Cato the Elder would irrelevantly conclude all his speeches to the Roman Senate with the words: "...and furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed," and wouldn't let up until Carthage was destroyed).

I also liked the fact that MB didn't treat his monks like cattle as they do in the Ajahn Chah tradition — sending them here and there willy-nilly. For example, in the early days of the forest sangha in England, Ajahn Sumedho came to visit Baan Taad and asked MB if he had any western bhikkhus whom he'd be willing to send to teach in England. "What are you talking about?" replied MB, "I don't send bhikkhus anywhere. If you want to know if they want to go to England why don't you try asking them?"

Another difference from Ajahn Chah's wats was that at Baan Taad there wasn't the obsession with pecking order that you get in the former. There was no silly pulling of rank like: "I ordained a week before you, so you have to empty my spittoon!" Hierarchy at Baan Taad was a lot simpler: Maha Bua was the boss and the rest of us were peers, addressing each other as "brother".

I expect there were lots of other things that I liked about Ajahn Maha Bua and his wat, but I don't remember them at the moment, so they'll have to wait until I get my diary back.
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Clarence » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:07 am

Nice stories Dhammanando.

Just curious but is there a place you would deem appropriate to stay at? Where both the Vinaya and the practice are uphold according to orthodox standards?

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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:52 am

Clarence wrote:Nice stories Dhammanando.

Just curious but is there a place you would deem appropriate to stay at? Where both the Vinaya and the practice are uphold according to orthodox standards?


I don’t personally know of any Thai monastery of which I could say: “All (or most) of the monks living there both observe the Vinaya well and avoid the extremes of eternalism and annihilationism.” One can say this of individual bhikkhus, but one can’t say that such a thing prevails in any community that I know of. Generally, in a wat where all the monks observe the Vinaya well the prevailing view will be semi-eternalist, or sometimes even full-blown eternalist, while in a wat where right view prevails the observance of Vinaya will be lax.

(It would appear this tendency is not a new one. I recall that one Chinese pilgrim to India, after visiting numerous monasteries all over the sub-continent, reported that the strictest Vinaya observance was to be found in those of the Pudgalavādin schools).

For this reason, I think it's desirable that a monk in his formative years should gain experience in both urban pariyatti and forest kammaṭṭhāna wats, taking what's best from both of them and then, when's he's got ten rains under his belt, getting the hell away from them.
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby greenjuice » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:11 am

Dhammanando wrote:
greenjuice wrote:How did the Lord Buddha talk to Acharn Mun?


Perhaps while the latter was undergoing an hallucination or pleasant snooze.


    “Bhikkhus, just as when the stalk of a bunch of mangoes has been cut, all the mangoes on it go with it, just so the Tathāgata’s link with becoming has been cut. As long as the body subsists, devas and humans will see him. But at the breaking-up of the body and the exhaustion of the life-span, devas and humans will see him no more.
    — Brahmajāla Sutta


Being that there is no seeing or perception in Nibbana, but unmediated knowledge, they could have talked without Mun literally seeing Buddha. Their conversation could have been supramundane, with Mun seeing Buddha in some transcendental way.

Just throwing ideas around..
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby robertk » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:45 am

very interesting to read about your experiences ven. Dhammanando..
with respect
Robert
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kirk5a » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:30 am

BlackBird wrote:The only thing I see that really relates to the problems I find between Ajahn Maha Boowa's doctrine and the Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka in the poem is this idea of the primal mind. However in the poem this idea is not much elaborated upon as it is by Ajahn Maha Boowa, mere mention of the primal mind is not enough to convince me (or should it anyone else with a critical thinking faculty) that Ajahn Mun was the espouser of the doctrine found in the biography.

There are the other recorded teachings of Ajahn Mun as well. I don't think there is much of a disparity with regard to their teachings on the citta. Plenty of similarily, and certainly nowhere near enough difference, if any, to warrant the accusation that Ajahn Maha Bua was "putting these ideas in the mouth of Ajahn Mun."
Ajahn Mun wrote:Those who aim at extinguishing the three realms should thus extinguish them in their own hearts. Only then will they obliterate activity — the act of supposing — from the heart, leaving just activityless-ness. This is the primal heart, the primal Dhamma, which knows no death.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eased.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Postby kmath » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:51 am

Dhammanando wrote:There weren't any teachings on Dhamma that I found valuable.

Nonetheless there were a number of things about Ajahn Maha Bua himself that made a lasting positive impression on me, mostly relating to the ajahn's uncompromising commitment to Buddhist ascesis and the general way that he ordered his monastery, which is among the best I've ever seen. For example, MB refused to give in to pressure from rich, well-meaning Bangkok lay supporters who wanted to make merit by "developing" the wat (i.e. by making it a more luxurious place). He wouldn't allow them to install electricity or running water or to hire contractors to build luxury concrete kutis or other buildings — everything had to be built of wood and by the monks themselves.

He also imposed this standard on those of his disciples who went off to start wats of their own. I remember there was one senior monk who had founded a new forest wat and was "developing" it in ways that went against MB's ideas of what is appropriate (e.g. building a concrete sala with a marble floor). Moreover the errant disciple was raising funds for these developments by constantly boasting to the laity about the fact that MB was his teacher. When MB heard of all this he not only disowned the disciple but for several weeks would end all his sermons to laypeople with the words: "...and one more thing. I want you to know that Ajahn X is no disciple of mine." (It reminded me of how Cato the Elder would irrelevantly conclude all his speeches to the Roman Senate with the words: "...and furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed," and wouldn't let up until Carthage was destroyed).

I also liked the fact that MB didn't treat his monks like cattle as they do in the Ajahn Chah tradition — sending them here and there willy-nilly. For example, in the early days of the forest sangha in England, Ajahn Sumedho came to visit Baan Taad and asked MB if he had any western bhikkhus whom he'd be willing to send to teach in England. "What are you talking about?" replied MB, "I don't send bhikkhus anywhere. If you want to know if they want to go to England why don't you try asking them?"

Another difference from Ajahn Chah's wats was that at Baan Taad there wasn't the obsession with pecking order that you get in the former. There was no silly pulling of rank like: "I ordained a week before you, so you have to empty my spittoon!" Hierarchy at Baan Taad was a lot simpler: Maha Bua was the boss and the rest of us were peers, addressing each other as "brother".

I expect there were lots of other things that I liked about Ajahn Maha Bua and his wat, but I don't remember them at the moment, so they'll have to wait until I get my diary back.


Really appreciated this. Thanks for sharing!

:anjali:
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