Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

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Mkoll
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Mkoll »

Dear Ven. Dhammanando,

Thank you for your post on Ajahn Maha Bua. That was very nice to read. A comment and a question...
Dhammanando wrote:I don’t personally know of any Thai monastery of which I could say: “All (or most) of the monks living there both observe the Vinaya well and avoid the extremes of eternalism and annihilationism.” One can say this of individual bhikkhus, but one can’t say that such a thing prevails in any community that I know of.
Nor even in the Buddha's day with the Buddha as a teacher no less!
For this reason, I think it's desirable that a monk in his formative years should gain experience in both urban pariyatti and forest kammaṭṭhāna wats, taking what's best from both of them and then, when's he's got ten rains under his belt, getting the hell away from them.
And where would you suggest he go from there?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Dhammanando »

greenjuice wrote:Being that there is no seeing or perception in Nibbana, but unmediated knowledge, they could have talked without Mun literally seeing Buddha. Their conversation could have been supramundane, with Mun seeing Buddha in some transcendental way.

Just throwing ideas around..
So is this chap:
  • “Supposing the Pope looked up and saw a cloud and said ‘It's going to rain’, would that be bound to happen?”
    “Oh, yes, Father.”
    “But supposing it didn't?”
    He thought a moment and said: “I suppose it could be sort of raining spiritually, only we were too sinful to see it.”
    — Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited

But I'm afraid that the notion of a "supramundane transcendental conversation involving no perception" is as meaningless to me as the spiritual rainfall that I’m too sinful to see.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Dhammanando »

Mkoll wrote:And where would you suggest he go from there?
It will vary from one monk to another, but as advised in the Vanapatha Sutta, he should go to a place where “...his unestablished mindfulness becomes established, his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated, his undestroyed taints come to destruction, and where he attains the unattained supreme security from bondage.”

Jungle Thickets

If a monk's put his first ten years to good use, then he should have a good idea what sort of place will be optimal for this.


[btw. This is likely to be my last post until the New Year as I'll be leaving shortly and going to an internet-free location]
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dhammanando wrote:I'll be leaving shortly and going to an internet-free location]
Lucky you, but your input will be missed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mkoll
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Mkoll »

Thanks Bhante.
tiltbillings wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:I'll be leaving shortly and going to an internet-free location]
Lucky you, but your input will be missed.
:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Mr Man »

Dhammanando wrote:
Clarence wrote:Nice stories Dhammanando.

Just curious but is there a place you would deem appropriate to stay at? Where both the Vinaya and the practice are uphold according to orthodox standards?
I don’t personally know of any Thai monastery of which I could say: “All (or most) of the monks living there both observe the Vinaya well and avoid the extremes of eternalism and annihilationism.” One can say this of individual bhikkhus, but one can’t say that such a thing prevails in any community that I know of. Generally, in a wat where all the monks observe the Vinaya well the prevailing view will be semi-eternalist, or sometimes even full-blown eternalist, while in a wat where right view prevails the observance of Vinaya will be lax.

(It would appear this tendency is not a new one. I recall that one Chinese pilgrim to India, after visiting numerous monasteries all over the sub-continent, reported that the strictest Vinaya observance was to be found in those of the Pudgalavādin schools).

For this reason, I think it's desirable that a monk in his formative years should gain experience in both urban pariyatti and forest kammaṭṭhāna wats, taking what's best from both of them and then, when's he's got ten rains under his belt, getting the hell away from them.
When do eternalist and annihilationist views drop away?

So right view = lax vinaya....hmm. Is right view an intellectual positioning or a condition for awakening?

Sounds like Bhante follows a path led by his proclivities.

:anjali:
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BlackBird
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by BlackBird »

Great posts Bhante, appreciate the insight. Is Ajahn Maha Boowa's monasteries still good places to stay?

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Sokehi
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Sokehi »

BlackBird wrote:There are many elements within the biography which contradict the word of the Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka. I will happily if you desire, over the coming months make a re-reading of the biography, and then make lists of sutta quotes to contradict each point of contention I find, by memory there were many.
If you really put that work on your shoulders I'd be happy to read through your findings and comparisons. I'm really interested in this since I can't get motivated to read through that work again. It would certainly help to put that discussion on a whole new level. Thank you beforehand!

:anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Clarence
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Clarence »

Dhammanando wrote:
Clarence wrote:Nice stories Dhammanando.

Just curious but is there a place you would deem appropriate to stay at? Where both the Vinaya and the practice are uphold according to orthodox standards?
I don’t personally know of any Thai monastery of which I could say: “All (or most) of the monks living there both observe the Vinaya well and avoid the extremes of eternalism and annihilationism.” One can say this of individual bhikkhus, but one can’t say that such a thing prevails in any community that I know of. Generally, in a wat where all the monks observe the Vinaya well the prevailing view will be semi-eternalist, or sometimes even full-blown eternalist, while in a wat where right view prevails the observance of Vinaya will be lax.

(It would appear this tendency is not a new one. I recall that one Chinese pilgrim to India, after visiting numerous monasteries all over the sub-continent, reported that the strictest Vinaya observance was to be found in those of the Pudgalavādin schools).

For this reason, I think it's desirable that a monk in his formative years should gain experience in both urban pariyatti and forest kammaṭṭhāna wats, taking what's best from both of them and then, when's he's got ten rains under his belt, getting the hell away from them.
Thanks for that. Interesting.
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greenjuice
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by greenjuice »

Dhammanando wrote:But I'm afraid that the notion of a "supramundane transcendental conversation involving no perception" is as meaningless to me as the spiritual rainfall that I’m too sinful to see.
But remembering one‘s past lives, reading thoughts of others or seeing their kamma isn‘t?
Thule
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Thule »

There's a nice talk on Ajahn Maha Boowa by Ajahn Pasanno:
http://www.abhayagiri.org/audio/ap-refl ... ssing-away

He must have been quite a character.
dagon
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by dagon »

Thule wrote:There's a nice talk on Ajahn Maha Boowa by Ajahn Pasanno:
http://www.abhayagiri.org/audio/ap-refl ... ssing-away

He must have been quite a character.
He was and he did have a very positive impact on the spiritual lives of lay people who he came in contact with - at least those without too much dust in their eyes. My respect to a good monk.

metta
dagon
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BlackBird
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by BlackBird »

I would also add that I have a very deep respect for Ven. Maha Boowa and his accomplishments as a monk, his teachings are not my cup of tea, but that is one thing and his life as a monk another.
If you really put that work on your shoulders I'd be happy to read through your findings and comparisons. I'm really interested in this since I can't get motivated to read through that work again. It would certainly help to put that discussion on a whole new level. Thank you beforehand!
It was more a suggestion to Kirk that it is more than possible to do so. The evidence is all there. It would be a lot of work, but if it allows people to see that there are some very major discrepencies between the Dhamma presented in the hagiography of Ajahn Mun and the Dhamma of the Buddha in the Sutta pitaka, I think there could be some positive benefits. I must ensure though that it such work is coming from the right place and not from greed, hatred or delusion. I am also a very busy man, between work, basketball & meditation I don't find much time for other stuff. But I will give it some thought over the coming week.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
dagon
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by dagon »

BlackBird wrote:I would also add that I have a very deep respect for Ven. Maha Boowa and his accomplishments as a monk, his teachings are not my cup of tea, but that is one thing and his life as a monk another.
If you really put that work on your shoulders I'd be happy to read through your findings and comparisons. I'm really interested in this since I can't get motivated to read through that work again. It would certainly help to put that discussion on a whole new level. Thank you beforehand!
It was more a suggestion to Kirk that it is more than possible to do so. The evidence is all there. It would be a lot of work, but if it allows people to see that there are some very major discrepencies between the Dhamma presented in the hagiography of Ajahn Mun and the Dhamma of the Buddha in the Sutta pitaka, I think there could be some positive benefits. I must ensure though that it such work is coming from the right place and not from greed, hatred or delusion. I am also a very busy man, between work, basketball & meditation I don't find much time for other stuff. But I will give it some thought over the coming week.

metta
Jack
Something’s that you may wish to consider in making you decisions.

We talk about the book that was written, when what we have seen is the book that was published and then translated.

Consider the situation the situation at the time, politically, socially, what occurring within religious institution and the interaction of all of those things. Let me put that another way. Everyone needs heroes and countries that are facing uncertain times even more. Taking those factors into account I cannot even be bothered to finish reading it.

To put that in context I am in the process of going through all of the other material with my wife – translating from as origin sources as I can get. I value what he taught in the context that he taught.

Metta
dagon
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BlackBird
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by BlackBird »

dagon wrote:
BlackBird wrote:I would also add that I have a very deep respect for Ven. Maha Boowa and his accomplishments as a monk, his teachings are not my cup of tea, but that is one thing and his life as a monk another.
If you really put that work on your shoulders I'd be happy to read through your findings and comparisons. I'm really interested in this since I can't get motivated to read through that work again. It would certainly help to put that discussion on a whole new level. Thank you beforehand!
It was more a suggestion to Kirk that it is more than possible to do so. The evidence is all there. It would be a lot of work, but if it allows people to see that there are some very major discrepencies between the Dhamma presented in the hagiography of Ajahn Mun and the Dhamma of the Buddha in the Sutta pitaka, I think there could be some positive benefits. I must ensure though that it such work is coming from the right place and not from greed, hatred or delusion. I am also a very busy man, between work, basketball & meditation I don't find much time for other stuff. But I will give it some thought over the coming week.

metta
Jack
Something’s that you may wish to consider in making you decisions.

We talk about the book that was written, when what we have seen is the book that was published and then translated.

Consider the situation the situation at the time, politically, socially, what occurring within religious institution and the interaction of all of those things. Let me put that another way. Everyone needs heroes and countries that are facing uncertain times even more. Taking those factors into account I cannot even be bothered to finish reading it.

To put that in context I am in the process of going through all of the other material with my wife – translating from as origin sources as I can get. I value what he taught in the context that he taught.

Metta
dagon
Hi Dagon

Does this post I made earlier align with what you have said above?
Blackbird wrote: ...And on the smoking point I wholeheartedly agree - This was the early half of the 1900's when Doctors prescribed smoking for supposed health benefits, rural Thais thought smoking was a medicine, and treated it as such.

Look these are monks who often had no access to the Suttas, these are monks who relied on Vinaya and meditation for the most part - Spending years at a time in seclusion in the depths of the Thai rainforest. Almost all of them contracted Malaria, time and time again. Their accounts and recollections must be remembered in the context of rural Thai culture of the early 1900s. This was a time before Western culture, medicine & technology had penetrated to that area. In a sense, it wasn't much different then than it had been 300 years earlier.

Whether or not you agree with Ven. Maha Boowas 'forest Dhamma' with it's eternal Buddhas and cittas that can descend from Nibbana and visit people at will, which in my opinion is closer to Mahayana than Theravada, one should not forget the positives these great men brought to Thai Buddhism - The revival of the Vinaya, of Meditation, of the kammathana - Practices that the Buddha would have praised! I personally think the Ajahn Mun of history and the one from the biography are quite different people...
- http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p270388

Thanks for the input (not being sarcastic, promise)

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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