Buddha statues are not idols?..

[kmath]

Anyone posting here accusing people of idol worship, please go to your nearest mosque / church, light a match, throw it onto a Quran / Bible.
Then watch your theory collapse. My apologies if this sounds harsh but I think you get my point with above analogy.

I missed the point. What was it?

[chownah]

OK I'm way late on this but can someone please tell me what the heck is 'idol worship' in an Asian context.
No living Asian tradition has any prohibitions against visual representations of sacred persons, deities etc.

The whole concept of 'idol worship' is a MONOTHEISTIC TABOO. It cannot be applied as a critique of what Buddhists do
or any other peoples for that matter. Its like trying to condemn an apple for not being an onion!

Anyone posting here accusing people of idol worship, please go to your nearest mosque / church, light a match, throw it onto a Quran / Bible.
Then watch your theory collapse. My apologies if this sounds harsh but I think you get my point with above analogy.

Metta

Way back in this thread I asked for a definition of what an idol is and seems like you are proposing a wide definition including things that are considered sacred. Your point is well taken.....religious and patriotic people of all stripes tend to idolize many things. I think there is a difference between idolizing a symbol and holding a belief that some object holds a soul or spiritual entity which the devotee worships.
chownah

[dhammafriend]

Way back in this thread I asked for a definition of what an idol is and seems like you are proposing a wide definition including things that are considered sacred. Your point is well taken.....religious and patriotic people of all stripes tend to idolize many things. I think there is a difference between idolizing a symbol and holding a belief that some object holds a soul or spiritual entity which the devotee worships.
chownah

To make my question / point even more clear, please explain to me why 'idol worship' is 'bad' beyond the fact that it contradicts right view. (even this is debatable)
Once again the whole critique of idol worship is a monotheistic concern, Buddhists from a western culture need to take a long hard look at their cultural conditioning.

And who is to say that objects cannot be inhabited by supernatural entities? (not that I personally believe this)
And once again, how is this 'bad' beyond the fact that it keeps Buddhists from right view.

[chownah]

Way back in this thread I asked for a definition of what an idol is and seems like you are proposing a wide definition including things that are considered sacred. Your point is well taken.....religious and patriotic people of all stripes tend to idolize many things. I think there is a difference between idolizing a symbol and holding a belief that some object holds a soul or spiritual entity which the devotee worships.
chownah

To make my question / point even more clear, please explain to me why 'idol worship' is 'bad' beyond the fact that it contradicts right view. (even this is debatable)
Once again the whole critique of idol worship is a monotheistic concern, Buddhists from a western culture need to take a long hard look at their cultural conditioning.

And who is to say that objects cannot be inhabited by supernatural entities? (not that I personally believe this)
And once again, how is this 'bad' beyond the fact that it keeps Buddhists from right view.

Since the structure of your post is as a reply to me I will answer from my perspective and say that I think that I have not posted anything that indicates that I am of the view that idol worship is bad and also I have never expressed the view that supernatural entities could not inhabit an object.

As to whether idol worship contradicts right view (I am assuming right view with remainder since I think it is clear that it has no place with right view without remainder), I think it depends on what is meant by worship.

I think the critique of idol worship is not only a monotheistic concern....for example atheists of all sort might be concerned....and I am reasonably certain that certain kinds of idol worshipers are concerned that other idol worshipers are worshiping false gods/idols.

I think that ALL Buddhists would benefit by taking a long I hard look at their cultural conditioning.

How this is 'bad' beyond possible right view violations is that IF the object being worshipped does not have some entity therein ensconced which has the power to effect that which the worshiper assumes it can effect, then the process of worshiping can be seen as an empty ritual and as such is best discarded if one is striving for stream entry.

Also, it seems that you are more forgiving of the supernatural based sort of idol worship and less forgiving of the Western form of sacredness sort of idol worship but maybe I am not reading you clearly.
chownah

[dhammafriend]

I think the critique of idol worship is not only a monotheistic concern....for example atheists of all sort might be concerned....and I am reasonably certain that certain kinds of idol worshipers are concerned that other idol worshipers are worshiping false gods/idols.

You're grasping at straws here dude.

I think that ALL Buddhists would benefit by taking a long I hard look at their cultural conditioning.

Amen to that!!

How this is 'bad' beyond possible right view violations is that IF the object being worshipped does not have some entity therein ensconced which has the power to effect that which the worshiper assumes it can effect, then the process of worshiping can be seen as an empty ritual and as such is best discarded if one is striving for stream entry.

Silabattaparamasa (attachment to rites & rituals) is a given for any putthujana (whether he is Muslim, Buddhist etc) The point of practice is to see through that.

Also, it seems that you are more forgiving of the supernatural based sort of idol worship and less forgiving of the Western form of sacredness sort of idol worship but maybe I am not reading you clearly.

No, not more forgiving, just that at the end of it, its basically the same : Silabattaparamasa. Regardless of what the 'reasoning' behind it is. As for the western view, how is an object that is sacred by association any more sophisticated or better ? Please explain, or do I misunderstand you here.

[chownah]

dhammafriend,
You do misunderstand me. Neither is better or worse in my view, but I do think that there are differences between the two while it seems you tend to lump them together.

You say I grasp at straws but isn't a westerner who criticizes 'idol worship' of the supernatural type but engages in 'idol worship' of 'sacred' objects just one kind of idol worshiper who is concerned that another idol worshiper is worshiping false gods/idols? Isn't someone who worships the flag of their country just an idol worshiper? Do you see anything wrong with worshiping the flag of your country?.....or that it is any better or worse than worshipping a stone idol?

chownah

[dhammafriend]

You do misunderstand me. Neither is better or worse in my view, but I do think that there are differences between the two while it seems you tend to lump them together.

I think we both agree here, sorry I misunderstood. Yes both can be points of wrong view or attachment.I do recognize the difference but feel they ultimately lead to the same defilement. So I 'lump them together'

You say I grasp at straws but isn't a westerner who criticizes 'idol worship' of the supernatural type but engages in 'idol worship' of 'sacred' objects just one kind of idol worshiper who is concerned that another idol worshiper is worshiping false gods/idols? Isn't someone who worships the flag of their country just an idol worshiper? Do you see anything wrong with worshiping the flag of your country?.....or that it is any better or worse than worshipping a stone idol?

Yes I agree with what you say here, but try and show some people of Western culture that they have sacred cows and they go nuts! The point of my post was as follows:

To make clear that the term 'idol worship' is a monotheistic cultural assumption, not an eternal truth valid for all time.
To then also bring to light that all human cultures 'do it', Abrahamic or not. They just don't use statuary but its just as tough to see through.

Personally, in a perfect world I would not even use that term on a Buddhist forum as it's actually an insult that is still used by Westerners towards other cultures to this day believe it or not. Thanks for the clarification Chownah.

[SarathW]

The answer to this question is depends on the person’s mental development.
I remember as a child, I was worshipping many idols including Buddha’s statues.
Now I an adult with some knowledge and see that in a different angle.
There are many Buddhist adults who have never grown out of their childhood conditioning.

I am pretty sure Buddha did not resemble to any of the statues we see now days.
I think he should been more like Bikkhu Bodhi.


Only a person who attain Sotapanna stage will completely eliminate this fetter.



Some info regarding the OP:
A Buddhist venerates an image of the Buddha, recollecting the supreme qualities of the Enlightened One, and aspires to acquire similar virtues. At that time faith (saddhaa) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha becomes the predominant mental state. This faith, reasoned and rooted in understanding, inspires the mind with confidence and determination to pursue the practice. This is the principle behind the veneration of the Buddha image, which the uninformed call "idol worship."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html