Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi Jechbi
Jechbi wrote:Hi Gabe,
gabrielbranbury wrote:But once we have an adequate fire break around our property to use your analogy ...
That wasn't my analogy. Nobody is talking about mindless indifference. That was something you added with your interpretation of Retro's post, I believe.

Metta
I meant using the analogy of fire to represent that which we might find difficult to tolerate.
Jechbi wrote:If you want to change the fire, you change the fuel. You don't reach in and try to change the flames. I think Retro is talking about the process of not adding more fuel.
Jechbi wrote:So when some unacceptable circumstance presents itself -- let's say you see that your son is standing in the path of an oncoming car -- of course you will react. You'll shout: "Get out of the way!" Or you'll run out and push him out of the way, if necessary. The good practice of tolerance is how we engage with that type of situation. Do we react with anger, yelling at the child for not being more careful, and maybe even giving the child a spanking or beating? Do we run after the car, yelling at the driver to slow down? How do we engage with that which we find unacceptable? This is samsara. Life is complicated. Tolerance is good practice.
Indeed life does seem very complicated at times. All I am saying is that we not shrink from the opportunity to point out how a teaching is not helpful and perhaps just wrong when that is how we perceive it. There are criteria we can use to look into our perception like in the Kalama Sutta.

I dont think that it is a question of acceptable or unacceptable if your son is about to be hit by a car. The very fact that you act to save your son means you have accepted that he will be hit by it if you do not act. I don't see where tolerance needs to play a role in this at all. If there is anger at the child or at the driver I would hope that I dont act out of that and just act out of what is appropriate to the situation. It might be appropriate to shout at the driver if I think it will be understood in a way which gets the driver to slow down in the future. It is possible to do such a thing without it being an expression of anger.

Kindly

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Jechbi
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Jechbi »

Hello Gabe,
gabrielbranbury wrote:All I am saying is that we not shrink from the opportunity to point out how a teaching is not helpful and perhaps just wrong when that is how we perceive it.
Yes, and when it comes to that, it's a good time to practice tolerance. So in tolerance, do it without the expectation of effecting change. Cuz you probably won't change anything. And do it mindful of the baggage we inevitably bring to the table when we confront someone else about their deeply held views. And do it at the right time, not at the wrong time. That's probably the most important part. FWIW.

Metta
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

Jechbi wrote:Hello Gabe,
gabrielbranbury wrote:All I am saying is that we not shrink from the opportunity to point out how a teaching is not helpful and perhaps just wrong when that is how we perceive it.
Yes, and when it comes to that, it's a good time to practice tolerance. So in tolerance, do it without the expectation of effecting change. Cuz you probably won't change anything. And do it mindful of the baggage we inevitably bring to the table when we confront someone else about their deeply held views. And do it at the right time, not at the wrong time. That's probably the most important part. FWIW.

Metta
Hi Jechbi,

What you say makes sense to me. Except the defeatist attitude that you will probably not change anything. Things are always changing. I would just say that it is always possible that the person you are conversing with may not hold the view in question as deeply as it seems and that it will not take much to influence them in a new and more positive direction. I have found this to be the case often enough. So I will repeat that if tolerance means avoiding becoming agitated then it is immensely valuable and even more so if it is the basis for an effort to make an influence for the good. I would say that an effort that comes from an intention of good will is better than making no effort even if it doesn't make any discernible positive effect.


Kindly

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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retrofuturist
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Gabriel,

You posed a couple of questions to me, but Jechbi seems to have answered them adequately to cover anything I might say.

Time now just to add a Dhammapada quote!

As a bee gathering nectar
does not harm or disturb
the colour and fragrance of the flower
so do the wise move through the world

(Dhammapada, verse 49).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by chicka-Dee »

retrofuturist wrote:Time now just to add a Dhammapada quote!

As a bee gathering nectar
does not harm or disturb
the colour and fragrance of the flower
so do the wise move through the world

(Dhammapada, verse 49).

Metta,
Retro. :)
I really like this. A great reminder, indeed.

:namaste:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by tiltbillings »

How wise was Gandhi or Martin Luther King?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:How wise was Gandhi or Martin Luther King?
Probably pretty very.

However, the Buddha's emphasis was on changing and perfecting the inner world... the loka as defined by the five aggregates or six senses, rather than the loka as defined conventionally by the Earth and its citizens.

The above Dhammapada quote makes sense in that context.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by appicchato »

Wise enough to know not to get into mindless debates...
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tiltbillings
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by tiltbillings »

appicchato wrote:Wise enough to know not to get into mindless debates...
Thank gawd I never do that...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by tiltbillings »

appicchato wrote:Wise enough to know not to get into mindless debates...
...unless you are trying to tell me something...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by tiltbillings »

appicchato wrote:Wise enough to know not to get into mindless debates...

... would you?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by cooran »

christopher said: ....isn't there also a collective element to karma and dukkha, in that its born of our interactions, reactions, responses, etc?
Could you say some more about this please Christopher?

metta
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by kannada »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
kannada wrote:
I think we'd just end up being intolerant of intolerance...

All the best

k
Hi K,

You are saying this regarding what?

I think we'd just end up being intolerant of intolerance if what??

I don't follow.

Kindly

Gabe
Hi Gabe, sorry my post was so brief.

Since writing that I've given it some more thought. Personally I don't really care what people have to put up with in the name of religion - the "go to hell when you die" brigade. If they're stupid enough to believe that then that's their problem, not mine. I was brought up with that sort of bull-shit and when old enough I just walked away. What really makes me see red is physical harm or cruelty, then I really do want to leap into action and start changing the world, or at least my little corner of it. If I ever got hold of some of these %$&*@# that kill in the name of religion I'd do them a social service and do my best to introduce them to some of the suffering that they inflict on others. I'd do it as dispassionately as possible, of course.

Today, on the radio, I heard of a new subset of so-called 'human being' that take videos of animal cruelty, for the purpose of the viewers enjoyment. The story was about the U.S. Gov't voting to see if anyone caught should get a mandatory jail sentence. I couldn't believe what I was hearing, how could anyone gain pleasure and satisfaction out of watching animals suffer??? I wish I could meet them so I could help change their attitudes (from vertical to horizontal). Where do these @%$#&*% get off, hurting animals for their 'pleasure'?

Their is so much beauty out their, people saving whales, commiting random acts of kindness and finally addressing global problems (caused by us, of course). However, their is a dark side to humanity and it should never, never be tolerated. We, as humans need to address this problem effectively somehow. These lowlifes who take pleasure in harming other human beings or animals are contemptible. Their needs are best served with means I'd rather not go into at the moment, but I'm sure you get my drift...

All the best

k
Last edited by kannada on Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by tiltbillings »

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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Dan74 »

Didn't the Buddha say that a sentient being is basically insane? So it's perhaps a little presumptuous for the inmates of an asylum to point fingers at those "more insane" than themselves. Not to mention counterproductive.

And that to me is the crux. By splitting off some of humanity as subhuman for whatever reason we are diminishing any chance they have at rehabilitation. And any chance our "shadowy" bits have a chance of ever seeing the light of day. Yes, we've got to call a spade a spade. Cruelty to animals is totally reprehensible. The people who are involved in this must be very very deluded.

I understand that this kind of thing (and child abuse and homophobia and etc etc) tends to make blood boil. And it is all too easy to rage indignantly against "these monsters". But who is without a sin, let him cast, eh? And as someone else said "Nothing that is human is alien to me." If I look carefully. We are all brothers and sisters. Most of us have lost our way. Few know that they have. If we are lucky enough to have the map to find it, this is an amazing privilege.

At the prison where I go as a chaplain, some people who come are probably child molesters. I don't ask. I am there to share the dharma/dhamma and if a guy genuinely appreciates what is being shared, I am very happy. Both for him and for everybody he will ever come in contact with. We all remember Angulimala. His "turning around" was also a great boon to all his potential victims too..

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